Author Topic: Green WE 302 type, dash-19 or dash-51 green ?  (Read 2049 times)

unbeldi

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Green WE 302 type, dash-19 or dash-51 green ?
« on: September 07, 2014, 07:30:02 PM »
Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/281429364671

So, the seller claims it is a solid plastic housing, but there are no date codes on the housing.
It came from an old telephone man who bought it when he started his job at the telephone company.

The parts are a mixture of sorts. The phone base and internals are from 1948 as the dates show. The dial appears a bit older, still having an older contact set and long finger stop.  The handset is painted black Bakelite, and the housing has the proper hookswitch for a heavy phenol handset.

At first I thought surely this was a black phone, painted green.  But there are good indications that the housing is indeed all green plastic, and that's what the seller claimed upon inquiry.

The question now is what kind of plastic is it?  Why doesn't it have a data stamp.
Is the color gray green (19), or series-500 green (51)?

If this is made from green-51 plastic then it is likely from 1955, if it is 302-type plastic, then why doesn't it have a matching handset from plastic.

Seems like the prospective buyers seem to think it is worthwhile owning, similar green sets with 500-type plastic didn't get close to the present price level, yet this one has a very bad crack along the handle.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 02:21:36 PM by unbeldi »

Offline TelePlay

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Re: Green WE 302 type, dash-19 or dash-51 green ?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2014, 08:07:49 AM »
I don't know about the color but I have a question about the handset crack, so please indulge this aside to the topic at hand.

In 4 years, I've never seen such a crack in a handset but there is this one and another I just spotted on eBay on a SC desk set. Same crack in length and width. My question is, as a parenthetical tangent to this post, how often does this happen and if anyone knows, how does it happen?  What causes such a crack?

Back to the color question.

unbeldi

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Re: Green WE 302 type, dash-19 or dash-51 green ?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2014, 09:27:23 AM »
I don't know about the color but I have a question about the handset crack, so please indulge this aside to the topic at hand.

In 4 years, I've never seen such a crack in a handset but there is this one and another I just spotted on eBay on a SC desk set. Same crack in length and width. My question is, as a parenthetical tangent to this post, how often does this happen and if anyone knows, how does it happen?  What causes such a crack?

Back to the color question.

That's a really interesting question too. I have seen just a few examples like this in pictures, but have not been unfortunate enough to receive such a specimen.

The only explanation I can come up with right now is that there was some kind of problem in the manufacturing process.  Either they didn't get the pressure or temperature of the press to the right value, or the mixing ratio of phenol base to formaldehyde was off.

I don't know what happens when a Bakelite piece is exposed to high temperatures later, or today. I would expect cracking to occur because of the internal stress from expansion, because it doesn't get soft. But it doesn't expand much either, I thought, but have no data w/r/t expansion coefficient.  At some temperature, Bakelite just decomposes.

But when simply heated, I wouldn't expect such long crevasse opening along the handle center.  This appears to be caused by weak material properties when there is still some softness in the bulk, perhaps unpolymerized resin.
Perhaps we should pull out that old bunsen burner and conduct the test.

Offline Doug Rose

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Re: Green WE 302 type, dash-19 or dash-51 green ?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2014, 09:42:19 AM »
I have only seen cracks like that on a Kellogg handsets that go on a Red bar. I have never seen it on w WE or an SC. I don't think its from a drop, but that is my opinion. I think it cracked under extreme heat or cold...maybe really dry conditions.

My guess on the phone is it a soft plastic made for a very short time by WE in the mid 50s. Soft plastic body with a matching painted bakelite F1handset....Doug
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unbeldi

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Re: Green WE 302 type, dash-19 or dash-51 green ?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2014, 10:28:07 AM »
I have only seen cracks like that on a Kellogg handsets that go on a Red bar. I have never seen it on w WE or an SC. I don't think its from a drop, but that is my opinion. I think it cracked under extreme heat or cold...maybe really dry conditions.
I agree it would not be from a drop.
Dry conditions shouldn't really matter for Bakelite, since there is no source of water inside Bakelite, and in case of humidity, Bakelite is very impenetrable to water vapor. On the surface, it can react with water, and thus would also shield the bulk from diffusion.  Neither would cause stress internally like this.

Quote
My guess on the phone is it a soft plastic made for a very short time by WE in the mid 50s. Soft plastic body with a matching painted bakelite F1handset....Doug
I agree, and I believe the year to be 1955. I am positive all such examples I have seen date to 1955, when the Bell System clearly was into color, creating Continentals, and Imperials, and 500-series colored 302s, the latter in very small batches apparently. They stopped making standard-colored 302s in 1954 (see here).  By 1956, these experiments seem gone.  I had one 1955 Imperial with cords from Q1 1956, and I don't know whether they were attached by someone later.

So, I believe this to be a green-51 Tenite butyrate or Tenite proprionate housing. Without side-by-side comparison it is essentially impossible to distinguish green-19 and green-51 in pictures.  In direct comparison, the 302-19 green is a little brighter than 500-51 green, despite the fact that -19 was also called gray green, see HERE:



« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 10:54:59 AM by unbeldi »

Offline rdelius

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Re: Green WE 302 type, dash-19 or dash-51 green ?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2014, 10:34:47 AM »
That SC set has an AE handset.Bakelite handsets stored in wet or damp conditions or no climate control  will split like this very often. Have seen this in sets with buss bars or wires molded in the bakelite.Possible moisture traveled along the metal and there was corrosion that expanded

unbeldi

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Re: Green WE 302 type, dash-19 or dash-51 green ?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2014, 10:41:08 AM »
That SC set has an AE handset.Bakelite handsets stored in wet or damp conditions or no climate control  will split like this very often. Have seen this in sets with buss bars or wires molded in the bakelite.Possible moisture traveled along the metal and there was corrosion that expanded

When metal is embedded into Bakelite this does open a possibility of internal stress, indeed. Volume expansion from corrosion creates pressure, like freezing water cracks concrete and rock in hairline crevasses.

Offline Doug Rose

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Re: Green WE 302 type, dash-19 or dash-51 green ?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2014, 12:57:41 PM »
Here is a picture of a  Green softplastic 302 with a matching painted handset that I no longer own. The softplastic was no different than the thermoplastic in color and did shrink as you can see by the tiny crack on the front right. ...Doug
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Offline david@london

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Re: Green WE 302 type, dash-19 or dash-51 green ?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2014, 01:21:20 PM »
re: the cracked handsets...... as doug said, this does seem to occur with kellogg handsets - the earlier rounded type from some redbars, 925s etc.
i was emailing phoneco.inc about one of these a year or so ago and was told they had several, but most/all had cracks.
the pictures they sent me showed a much less serious crack than the SC/AE one shown above though.

is it known whether that type of kellogg handset has a metal insert ?

unbeldi

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Re: Green WE 302 type, dash-19 or dash-51 green ?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2014, 01:54:09 PM »
re: the cracked handsets...... as doug said, this does seem to occur with kellogg handsets - the earlier rounded type from some redbars, 925s etc.
i was emailing phoneco.inc about one of these a year or so ago and was told they had several, but most/all had cracks.
the pictures they sent me showed a much less serious crack than the SC/AE one shown above though.

is it known whether that type of kellogg handset has a metal insert ?

By inspection.  If the handle has a hollow conduit in the center and has 2 wires strung through there connecting to the receiver then there is no metal imbedded. Only solid Bakelite handles had wires molded within, such as the early WE F1 handsets.

Indeed, I think all Kellogg Masterphone handsets were so constructed and many others. For example, on the Kellogg F-27C or 46C you can see the steel bars emerging from the plastic on both ends. The Western Electric handsets were more carefully designed, and you cannot see the connecting wires or bars themselves, only the brass screw terminals at each end in the handset cavities.

I find it actually pretty amazing that water could indeed creep in, in sufficient amount to crack the handles. But then... water does a lot of amazing things and given enough time I wouldn't discount anything.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 02:26:34 PM by unbeldi »

Offline poplar1

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Re: Green WE 302 type, dash-19 or dash-51 green ?
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2014, 02:32:41 PM »
Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/281429364671

So, the seller claims it is a solid plastic housing, but there are no date codes on the housing.
It came from an old telephone man who bought it when he started his job at the telephone company.


It's doubtful he "bought" it, though it may have "fallen off the truck." Even after Design Line phones were first offered for sale, standard phones weren't offered for sale (at first). Just before Divestiture (1-1-84), there was an "ETE" (Employee Telephone Equipment) plan where the already installed phones were given to the Bell employees, before ownership of the "embedded base" lease phones was transferred to AT&T. There was also a "SIP" (Sold in Place) plan that allowed customers to buy the phones that they were already leasing.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.