Author Topic: Newbie first post- My Western Electric 202 with ringer subset needs some help  (Read 3656 times)

Offline Westernflow

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Hi Everybody,
Great group you have here glad to be able to join. i have been collecting old rotary phones for a number of years first simply by accident then on purpose. I would fing them in old buildings or in the trash and fix them up- built like tanks! My collection has been reduced over the years as I have given many away to friends and neighbors whose kids have never actually used a rotary phone before! Gasp! :o

My favorite phone is the WE 202. I have one that was mfg'd in 1931 is all original and that works great! However, it has a peculiar problem when I use it plugged in with other phones on my house circuit. The other phones do not ring -only the 202 subset (suspect the sub is a 630 series). The phone works fine otherwise... talk and receive is loud and clear (sort of that is...lol). When I unplug the 202 the group of others (WE 500, WE 500 avocado wall phone, and Automatic Elec. #40) ring as one all of the time. A friend told me that the ringer in the 202 subset needed more ohms to allow less resistance and not 'suck up" all of the current afforded to the ringer circuit for the house's other phones. I checked and it has 1400 Ohms. He said I should use a 2000 ohm ringer?

I am in the process of abrasive blasting the ringer/subset case (rusty) and will recoat (likely with Rustoleum satin or semi- gloss black --- cant decide) reassemble and retest, but I suspect the same results.

Any suggestions? I would love to use all of these at once. If needed I can post pictures of what I've got subset-wise to compare.
When I fix this one then I will tackle my next phone a Kellogg redbar K1000 which also has a similar no ring problem.

Many thanks Westernflow ;)

Offline Kenton K

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  • Kenton "Clickty Clack"
Old ringers do take up a lot of juice, so it is normal. Maybe put a 1mf capacitor in series with the ringer?

KK

unbeldi

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A traditional phone line supports a ringing load of up to 5 REN, which is a measurement called ringer equivalence number. The standard was set by the old 500-type desk phone, which was ~1 REN.

The older phones have lower impedance ringers and present a much higher load to the telephone plant. A 534 subset may have a load factor of 2.5 or higher, a 634 or 684 is not much better.  Yours has a 1400 ohm ringer and I expect about REN 2.2.

We discussed this  on the forum recently:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12662.0

So, it seems your load is full, 2 x 500 (=2) + AE40 (~ 2 to 2.5 ?) = 4.5 max.  Adding another 2.5 from your 202, brings you way above the REN 5 quota, almost 7.


unbeldi

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You may want to consider acquiring a PBX system for your quarters.

Many collectors use one of the Panasonic EasaPhone  KX-T61610 or KX-T30810 electronic switching systems.

You can find these in many places, including eBay, for as little as $40 often, sometime less, sometimes more.

The 616 has six outgoing (CO) lines and 16 station ports, while the 308 has three CO lines and eight telephone ports.
Each station port can handle up to 3 REN loads.

There are many other PBX models as well, and many should work similar wonders.


Offline LarryInMichigan

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I often add resistors in series with the ringer to reduce the current draw.  1K-2KΩ should help. 

Larry

Offline Westernflow

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Thanks for the great information. I'm rather new to these and not quite sure how to add a resistor to the ringer. Is this added to the wires that attach to the network from the actual ringer itself? Thanks W

Offline poplar1

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Thanks for the great information. I'm rather new to these and not quite sure how to add a resistor to the ringer. Is this added to the wires that attach to the network from the actual ringer itself? Thanks W
Connect the resistor in series with the ringer. You can do this by disconnecting one ringer lead, and attaching that lead to one side of the resistor. Then connect the other side of the resistor to the terminal where you removed the ringer lead.

For example:

Before:
L1<------------------------------(Red)--ringer--(Black)------->K<------capacitor------>L2-Y

After:
L1<-----------Resistor----->*<(Red)--ringer--(Black)------->K<------capacitor------>L2-Y

* connect together. You can use the GND terminal for this.

Note: K terminal in 634 or 684 subset; C terminal in 534A subset.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 11:25:13 AM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline dsk

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 :)  I guess we never will come to an agreement of putting in a capacitor, or a resistor in series with the ringer. The current will be reduced whatever you choose, but the energy will be lost as heat in the resistor, when the capacitor changes a phase angle, and the load are reduced without a loss ending as heat. Sometimes this makes the maximum load available greater. Whatever you do may depend of what you have available.


An extra resistor could be as stated from 1000 ohms, and I know some has used as much as 4700. The suitable capacitor should be rated 200V or more, not be polarized, and have a value between 0.47-2.2 microFarad. 


It is no definite answer, test whatever you have available, it is lots of solution who will work, and the discussion about the best solution are (usually) only interesting until you have found one good enough. ;)


dsk

Offline tallguy58

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Why not just disconnect the ringer and let the other phones in the house alert you of an incoming call?

That's what I do. I don't need 10 phones going off at once. Scares the crap out of everyone.
Cheers........Bill

Offline Lewes2

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Curious to know the pros and cons of going to a PBX, like Pano kx t61610 versus adding a Viking RG 10 A  or a Sandman's Ring Voltage Booster II.

If I understand correctly, all would allow more phones to ring than that allowed by the 5 REN limitation of a POTS line. 

Chuck


unbeldi

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Curious to know the pros and cons of going to a PBX, like Pano kx t61610 versus adding a Viking RG 10 A  or a Sandman's Ring Voltage Booster II.

If I understand correctly, all would allow more phones to ring than that allowed by the 5 REN limitation of a POTS line. 

Chuck
Well, is price a concern?  My average price including shipping on the four Panasonics that I have, is $55, including a free one.
With these you can set up which phones are going to ring, yet a call can be picked up from any by configuring pickup groups. But for custom configuration you need a proprietary phone, which can cost about the same as the PBX.
You can also call one station from another by dialing the extension number. However, when dialing outside, each number must be prefixed with 9, or the line id (81,82,...).

It all depends on what you want to do.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 01:02:40 PM by unbeldi »

Offline Westernflow

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Its funny, I have pondered this little phone problem for quite a while (months) and I never thought of disconnecting any of the phone ringers I have currently installed. being a mechanical thinker of sorts sometimes the obvious solution right in front of me is overlooked! Cheers Guys!
I think if I disconnect the WE 500's and just leave the 202's ringer I will be a happy camper!

I just beadblasted, repainted and reassembed my subset box. Not to mention mirror polish those bells and coat with gold toned lacquer all looks great! I would like to buy some water transfers that say Western Elec. like original but dont know a good source of purchase nor do I know where exactly on my subset to affix them.
Any suggestions? I can post photos to ID the actual subset.

Thanks for all of the advice. Westernflow :)

unbeldi

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Not to mention mirror polish those bells and coat with gold toned lacquer all looks great!
Should it be mentioned that Western Electric never intended brass gongs to be shiny but instead intentionally oxidized them ?

Quote
I would like to buy some water transfers that say Western Elec. like original but dont know a good source of purchase nor do I know where exactly on my subset to affix them.
Any suggestions? I can post photos to ID the actual subset.

Thanks for all of the advice. Westernflow :)

Only some factory fresh wooden subsets [and the early metal subsets] had decals.  Metal subsets were usually embossed with the company name, and the Bakelite covers had the company named molded into the plastic.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 08:04:02 AM by unbeldi »

Offline Kenton K

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  • Kenton "Clickty Clack"
I, personally, don't polish the gongs. I just looks funny to me when their shiny. I wonder is laquere would change the sound quality? But, to each their own.

KK

Offline poplar1

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All 334A Metal Subsets (exposed gongs) had Western Electric Decals. The early 534As also had decals. The later 534As and 634As had WESTERN ELECTRIC embossed in the metal cover.

The metal backboard you showed was used to fit over the top of the shoe molding so that the bell box would not mar a fancy wall such as marble. The wood 147A backboard was much more common for mounting a bell box or wall phone on plaster walls.

In the last picture notice how much wider the border is on the front. This is the earliest style 534A cover. The original decal was painted over and the 534A was converted to a 634A.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.