Author Topic: model 5302 ringer problem  (Read 3878 times)

Offline carl

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model 5302 ringer problem
« on: August 02, 2009, 03:44:31 PM »
Okay,this pain in the neck is back here asking for help...again.My 5302 phone does work but now it will not ring! I hadn't used it in a
while,and hooked it up today but it refuses to ring.In the past when a call came in it would ring once,as sort of a prelude,then ring
normally,but now, nothing.I switched some wires back and forth and now can't remember what goes where.Can someone help me
get it back on track? I've enclosed a pic of the current wiring and am hoping someone can reroute it for me so that it will ring.
Any help would be much appreciated,as usual.Thank you,Carl NY

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2009, 04:46:12 PM »
OK, here's the wiring for that ringer.

First, Identify a few things.  The induction coil is the thing that should be labeled 101A and looks a bit like a doorbell transformer.  It has a bunch of wires going to it.

Second, the ringer.  Probably not a problem identifying, and it should only have two wires coming from it.  One Red, and one Black.

Next is the condenser.  The metal condenser "can" is mounted beneath a metal retaining clip, and actually contains two condensers.  One for talking; and one for ringing.  The talking circuit wires from the condenser are red and black, and the ones we are interested in for the ringer are Yellow and Slate (Light gray).

Now for the connections.  The Red wire from the ringer should be connected to the L1 post on the 101A induction coil.
The yellow wire from the condenser should be connected to the L2/Y terminal on the induction coil.
Both the Black wire from the ringer and the slate wire from the condenser should be connected to a tie point connector to the screw labled K.

That's about it.

By the way, the old fabric wires from the condenser get faded over time.  While it is probably pretty easy to see which are the red and black ones from the condenser, it may be hard to differentiate between the yellow and slate wires.  Not to worry.  It's perfectly OK to hook them up in reverse.

Let me know if you run into any difficulties.

Bill
-Bill G

Offline carl

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2009, 05:34:35 PM »
Bill,first off,thank you.I connected the red ringer wire to the L1 and the yellow condenser wire to the L2y but connecting the
black ringer wire and that slate wire to the K connector did not produce a ring,so I then connected the black wire to where I
connected the yellow wire and it does ring....not a really full ring,in that it seems to chirp once,then ring,and the ring is
adequate,if a little tinny,so I'm thinking some wear on the parts.I'm still not sure if I followed you correctly but it does ring now,
so again thank you.If you feel I missed something,since I'm still a novice,just let me know and I'll try again.Carl

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2009, 06:07:12 PM »
Carl:

Well, that is a puzzle.  Maybe the condenser (aka capacitor) is bad.  If you can read a diagram, here is a link to it, and what we are talking about is in the far upper left-hand corner.

http://telephonecollectors.org/library/weco/302-5302.pdf

If you now have the red ringer wire connected to L1 and the black ringer wire connected directly to L2/Y, you have connected the ringer directly across the phone line, and taken the series condenser out of the circuit.  While this may "ding" once when the phone rings, it will probably also trip the ringing current and have the same effect as answering the phone on the first ring.  You probably will have a great deal of difficulty dialing out under that configuration.  The condenser is there to allow the passage of the 20Hz AC ringing current through to the ringer, while blocking the normal talking and dialing DC to the ringer, to keep the ringer from interfering.

If your condenser is bad, I am sure many will have spare 195A condensers they can send you for cheap.  I may even have some sitting around

You may also check the spacing of the gongs in relation to the clapper arm on the ringer.  Yours looks to be set pretty wide on one side, but even with it as is, you should have no mistaking the 20 cycle buzzing that it would make, even if it were not striking the gongs.

Also check that the clapper arm that is hooked to the pivotal rocker is free to rock and is not stuck.

Based on your description, my guess at this point would be the condenser, although they are generally pretty rugged, and don't go out very often, but then again, it is certainly not unheard of.  To test, you could go down to your friendly radio shack and buy a .5 or a 1.0 1MF (Value not critical) non-polarized capacitor and try that out.  I think they are about a buck or so each.

Let me and the rest of the group know how you do.

-Bill
-Bill G

Offline Dennis Markham

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 07:02:34 PM »
Bill, I'm just take a stab in the dark here but if he connects it the way you instructed and then puts the yellow mounting cord wire (at the plug) with the green wire that may get it ringing??

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2009, 07:47:23 PM »
Dennis:

Nice try but no.....

Not unless the yellow from the condenser would be connected to GND inside the phone and not to L2/Y.

Here is a diagram I just drew up in Visio.

The confusion about strapping the yellow to the green wire at the terminal block comes from phones that were originally wired for the option for party line ringing, which most phones were.  For one party, the ringing was done as it is for private lines and the way all phones are done today.  Across L1 and L2 only.  Remember, these days all signals, ringing and talking only come over L1 and L2, unless by chance someone out there still has party line service!

For Divided ringing, they would have rung one party between L1 and ground, and the other between L2 and ground.  Tringing scheme is just simply not used any more.  So if you have a phone, where, say the black ringer wire was hooked to the GND or simply the G terminal which was the yellow wire, you would need to bridge the yellow over to one side or the other (Usually to green) to get it to work without moving the black wire inside the phone.

I gave the instructions from the 5302 which was written using private line ringing in ist schematic, and it matches the diagram I am attaching.  If you go to the TCI website and open up the schematic for the 302, on the other hand, it is shown for tip side to ground ringing.

http://telephonecollectors.org/library/weco/we302.pdf

Probably more information than anyone really wants for a hot Sunday afternoon!

-Bill
-Bill G

Offline carl

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 08:08:40 PM »
Bill,Dennis,I'll recheck the wiring and advise.It would seem that I've crossed some connections,as I know I changed some wires that were not the cuprits,so now some others having nothing to do with ringing may be longing for their original homes,as the ringing is ok but not like my other model 500 which produces a somewhat more solid sound.However...It Rings! That was the original problem and is virtually solved,so again,thanks so much.Carl NY


Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2009, 08:16:55 PM »
The C4 ringer in a 500 was an improvement over the 302 and 5302 B1A ringers, and could wake the dead.  However, the ringing from a B1A (302 style) should not be disapointing either.

I probably came back with too much info too fast, so, by all means digest it, and take a look at the 5302 diagram if you want to, and check it against your phone at your liesure.

-Bill
-Bill G

Offline carl

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2009, 08:25:35 PM »
Just a final thought for the evening.I did dial out and while I reached the number,I could hear the gonger hitting the bells. I also reopened it and saw it moving as I dialed,so I'll go over it again and advise.Carl

Offline Dennis Markham

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2009, 09:33:51 PM »
Nice diagram Bill, Thank you.

Still hot out your way?  Going down to 58 here tonight.  I might have to throw on an extra blanket.  :)

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2009, 09:46:32 PM »
Dennis:

Whew!

106.5 officially in Walla Walla yesterday, although I saw one time and temp sign on the streetcorner (The bank I work at) that said 112.  But those are never correct!

Never quite broke 100 today, so, much better.  Fortunately, I have AC.    I don't know what it did in Portland or Seattle; probably the high 90's.  Brinybay can probably fill us in on Seattle.

Our low tonight is supposed to be 73.  Last night I had 86 degrees at 3:00am but about 75 at 8:00am this morning.

Oh, and back to the ringer problem Carl is having.... If it tinkles when he dials, right now, that would be a further indication that he has the condenser out of the circuit and that the ringer is "barefoot" across the L1 and L2/Y terminals.

Carl, hang in there....I think we have solved bigger deals than this, and besides when this happens, everyone winds up winning and learning.  Sometimes it's as easy as telling someone to put the red wire on "X", but usually there is more involved.  Looks like this is shaping up in that direction.
-Bill G

Offline carl

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 03:39:05 PM »
Okay,here's where I am so far...connected to 101A under letter C   white from handset,red from condenser
Under L1   red from handset,rred from ringer,gray from dial brown from condenser   under L2  black from ringer red from handset
under LY   yellow from handset brown from condenser  Under an unlabeled port is green from handset
under GN a greenish from dial     there's also a small box with gnd and k to the side of bells and a brownish wire from condenser is
attached.While the phone rings,it rings in an unorthodox fashion,chirping on receiving a call,then ringing properly,and when dialing,
the gonger/hammer will move.I'm sorry to be such a wimp on this but do appreciate the help.I've attached a current pic.Thanks,Carl

Offline bingster

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2009, 04:16:04 PM »
Hi Carl,  see if this post helps.  It lists what wires go where, and shows clear photos of the connections on the coil and terminal board (which should all be labeled).

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=275.msg2419#msg2419

Two posts ABOVE that post is another showing dial connections that you might want to double check.
= DARRIN =



Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2009, 05:36:35 PM »
Carl:

On your 5302, does the handset cord have three conductors or the later version which has 4?

The 3 conductors would be Red, Black, White

The 4 conductor version would have 2 whites, a red, and a black.

I am confused because you have mentioned a yellow and a green from the handset in your earlier post.  Perhaps it has an AE style handsert cord, because the WE handset cords did not have green or yellow conductors. 

If this is the case, we will need to determine which of those wires are hooked to which elements in the handset.  Then we can deal with the rest.

-Bill


-Bill G

Offline carl

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Re: model 5302 ringer problem
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2009, 07:48:08 PM »
Bill,hi.Yes,it is a 4 wire model.Two whites,red and black coming from the handset.I tried several times today,following,I thought so anyway,
but still no improvement.I actually lost the ringing altogether but put it back to where it was,so now it just rings haphazardly and I
can see the movement of the clanger against the bells when I dial.Whew! Carl