Author Topic: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie  (Read 3406 times)

Offline oyang

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Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« on: August 24, 2015, 12:19:58 AM »
Hi All,

I'm an avid fountain pen collector and thought it would be nice to get a couple of phones from the period of my pen interest (1900-1940).  I got a WE 202 D1 (third quarter of 1936).  I'll post pictures later when I figure out how to do so (they keep getting rejected by the site).

I've tried to do my homework and have looked at the wiring diagrams and several discussions, but as a complete newbie I am still lost and so need some help with the most basic aspects.  Hopefully you guys have some patience for some completely novice questions.... I'll gladly trade fountain pen information for phone information if I can!

The first thing I did was to check the wiring, which looks to be in good shape.  All the wiring matches the diagram in the thread here, except there was a corroded 61A filter in place that I removed and replaced with a wire (BK-Y):

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=784.0

(diagram for B, D mount 202 dial)

So I know that this phone requires a subset to work properly, but can be hooked up directly to a line short term to test (it has the later handset that is less prone to damage).  I took a phone wire that plugs into my landline jack at home (it's an old-fashioned Verizon landline and not an internet phone line) and stripped the wires to expose red/green yellow/black.  My understanding is that red/green is the primary line circuit, and yellow/black is for a second line. When I plugged in the jack and checked, there was indeed current running between the red and green, but no other combinations.

The WE 202 phone has red green yellow black wires.  As best as I could tell, the connection should be phone red-jack red, phone green-jack green, phone yellow-jack yellow.  I tried this hookup but got no dial tone.

OK, so what next?  How do I narrow down the problem? I tested all the wire connections with an ohm meter and they all seem to be intact......

Thanks!

Otto
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2015, 12:41:47 AM »
Hot-wiring is not recommended, but if you must....

You only need to connect the yellow and green wires from the phone to the red and green wires from the wall/jack.  Doesn't matter which wires from the phone go to which in the wall.

Sound quality won't be balanced, but you will be able to dial and carry on a conversation. (Provided the service you are on will function with rotary dialing).  The phone won't ring, of course, because there is no ringer without a subset.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 12:44:41 AM by Phonesrfun »
-Bill G

Offline oyang

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2015, 01:16:10 AM »
Thanks for the quick response Bill....

This is not intended for long term, just a quick test that the phone works.  I've got a couple of options for a subset or mini network (I also got a rotary dial candlestick, so I'll probably use the mini network for this phone and the subset for the candlestick). I tried what you suggested and there is no dial tone. There must be something wrong with the phone.
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline poplar1

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2015, 07:37:29 AM »
Green and red conductors of the 4-conductor cord are actually for the receiver circuit only.

You may want to remove the receiver unit and measure the resistance across the two contacts on the back. It should be about 26 ohms, and you should also hear faint clicks from the battery in the meter. If not, the receiver is probably open (defective).

If it's good there, then replace   reinstall the receiver unit, and measure across the R and W terminals inside the handset. (If not, then either the two contact springs in the handle are not making good contact with the receiver, or the wiring inside the handle is bad).

If still 26 ohms there, measure across the R dial terminal and W dial terminal, i. e. , where the handset cord is connected. (If not working, then the handset cord is open.)

Next, leaving one probe on R, move the other from W on dial to BB on dial. (If not working, then the bottom two contact springs  of the dial are not making.)

Then move probe from BB on dial to W on hookswitch.

Then move probe from W on hookswitch to GN on hookswitch, with the handset out of the cradle.

Last, move this probe to the green conductor on the loose end of the cord, and the other probe from R on the dial to the loose red conductor.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 08:49:59 AM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline NorthernElectric

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2015, 01:18:29 PM »
...measure across the R dial terminal and W dial terminal, i. e. , where the handset cord is connected. (If not working, then the handset cord is open.)

Is that piece of electrical tape on the white handset wire possibly concealing damage to the wire?.
Cliff

Offline oyang

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2015, 02:39:28 PM »
Thanks so much guys!  I'll try the suggestions this evening after work.

Good eye! The electrical tape was placed by myself because the housing was worn through at that spot. However, the wire underneath was completely intact.

I appreciate the help.
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline dsk

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2015, 03:43:00 PM »
You may use a battery of 4.5-9V for testing.  The current should go from battery trough transmitter trough  receiver trough pulse contacts in dial and trough  at least one hooksw. contact set and back to the battery.  The order of these components or polarity does not matter.

It will give loud clicks in the receiver when dialing.  To stop those clicks you may use a set of contacts on the dial to just short out the receiver when dial is out of rest position.   This will work until you get your mini-network.

dsk

I have even got a regular New York number :-) 646 570 1796

Offline oyang

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2015, 12:57:45 AM »
Well, I only got to step 1 of your troubleshooting.  I unscrewed the earpiece and took out what I assume you are calling the "receiver" (sorry; I don't know the terminology so forgive me if I am inaccurate), pictured.  I used the meter to test the connection between the center terminal and the surrounding ring terminal, and it was dead (open).  I looked underneath the plate with the terminals on it and saw that there are two hair-fine wires, and at least one of them seems broken.... I tried to take a picture.  There is a fuzzy blob on one wire, which I am assuming is some type of corrosion.

I hot-wired the phone and checked the terminals in the handset where the receiver sits; there was live current running between them when the hook is up, which goes away when the hook is down.  So it looks like the receiving part of the phone has intact wiring.

With the phone hot-wired, I tried to dial out to my cell phone, but it did not ring.  I guess that means either there is a problem with the output of the phone, a problem with the dialer mechanism, or that my landline doesn't take pulse dialing. 

First things first though, is there a way for me to repair the receiver? Can I solder new wires in place?
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline G-Man

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2015, 01:13:07 AM »
Difficult to be certain but from the limited view, it appears that the receiver is a clone of WECo’s HA1 and was perhaps, manufactured by Holtzer-Cabot, Connecticut or another manufacturer.
 
 This is another reason for not using a battery for testing or dc flowing through a receiver without some form of current limiting.
 
 A replacement should not be very expensive but if you want to try soldering it, first carefully burn-off the varnish with your soldering iron. Then tin it and solder another fine-gauge wire to it. Then finish by soldering the extension wire to the terminal.
 
This is a difficult job for even experienced soldering technicians, so don’t be disappointed if the outcome is less than successful.[/font]

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2015, 02:00:31 AM »
Well, if the receiver is open then nothing will work when hotwired, because the hotwired circuit depends on the transmitter and the receiver being connected in series.  So, with no functioning receiver, you won't be able to dial a number.   If the receiver is blown, I am sure someone here will have an HA1 receiver they can sell you for a reasonable price.  Alternatively, you could go to oldphoneworks.com and get one for $4.95 plus shipping from Ontario, Canada.

BTW, In an earlier post, I indicated that all you needed to do was connect the green and yellow wires to the line.  I did neglect to say that in order for dialing to take place, you need to disable the function of the dial that turns off the receiver during dialing.  Therefore, you would need to move the white wire fro the W terminal on the dial to the W terminal on the hookswitch.  Understand that with this modification which allows a hotwired phone to dial, the unfortunate by-product is loud clicks in the receiver during dialing.  This, of course, assumes a properly functioning receiver element. 

I agree with G-man, the receiver element you have is not Western Electric.  Was it in a WE F1 handset?  Can you post a picture of the handset?  I also agree with him that soldering the wire on a receiver element is a very delicate operation and very difficult to get enough extra slack in the wire to repair a break, even if your micro-soldering skills are good.  Easier to just replace it.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 02:04:49 AM by Phonesrfun »
-Bill G

Offline oyang

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2015, 04:12:49 PM »
Thanks all!  Update:

The receiver is labeled HA1, so it's either a WE or a very precise clone.  I did get a replacement that is functional.  When I hot-wired the phone, it both receives and sends sound, so everything is working in those circuits. I have not yet tried the rewiring to test the dial function, but I think I will do that after I hook it up to a subset.

Thanks again everyone; you are such a nice and helpful community.

Otto
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2015, 10:32:52 PM »
Thanks all!  Update:

I have not yet tried the rewiring to test the dial function, but I think I will do that after I hook it up to a subset.


With a subset, there is no rewiring needed.
-Bill G

Offline oyang

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2015, 01:24:27 AM »
I'm posting a picture of the whole phone (including handset) since I neglected to do that before.  Cosmetically it seems nice to me, although I don't know how collectors would rate it.

So, using diagrams on this site, I wired this phone to a 685A subset that looked like it was in someone's damp basement for a few decades.... and to my surprise it worked perfectly fine (after I corrected a couple of small mistakes in wiring).

For posterity (i.e. another newbie who wants to see a picture rather than just a wiring diagram) I'm attaching a picture of my final wiring setup.

Final question about this phone and subset: Is there a need to replace the wiring even though it's all working? Is there any safety hazard from using it with these old wires, as long as I examined them and saw that they are still completely covered and not frayed? There was only one worn area of insulation on one wire that I wrapped with electrical tape.

Thanks again everyone.... You may hear from me again soon, as I have a next project already planned: a WE 51AL and a 634AT subset.
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline oyang

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2015, 01:29:50 AM »
Image of my final working wiring (before I added spade connectors to the ends of the new wires I added, but otherwise the working setup)
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Hello and help with a WE202 for a complete newbie
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2015, 09:38:15 PM »
Nice phone and welcome to the world of phones.  A word of caution, these things are addictive in nature, and this forum is the next best step to a 12-step recovery meeting, but some might say that this forum is to phone collectors what a bar is to an alcoholic.  Either way, you might expect the collection to grow in time. Just think how nice that 202 will look sitting on the same desk with a fountain pen holder from the 1930's.  A good "go-with" item.

No need to replace the wiring.  In fact original is always best unless the insulation is so shot that it is shorting out or causing static due to deteriorating flexible wires in the handset and line cords.  These are not connected to any kind of voltages that would make them hazardous.  The most hazardous thing would be touching the line cord wires while ringing current is applied.  Not lethal, but certainly a shock that gets your attention.  Certainly not a fire hazard.

Phone line voltage with no load is 48 volts DC from a legacy central office and some Internet phone ATA's.  Most other Internet ATA's provide 24 volts DC under no load.  Once you pick up the phone and put a load on the line, the voltage will drop to under 10 volts.  Whether on or off hook you are not likely to have any issues by touching the phone line wires with no ringing current applied to the line. 

Ringing current is AC at about 70 to 90 volts and usually at 20 Hz.  Low current and the duration is only a second or two at a time.  It will shock you in an uncomfortable way if you happen to be touching the wires when a call comes in.  If you happen to have a very bad heart or have a pacemaker, I suppose it could be lethal, but to a normal person it is just uncomfortable.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 09:42:43 PM by Phonesrfun »
-Bill G