Author Topic: Second Newbie Project: Wiring a WE Candlestick Rotary (51/151 AL?) to a 634AT Subset  (Read 6894 times)

Offline oyang

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Thanks for "helping" me along with a new addiction, which will hopefully be kept under reasonable control, as I have that "collecting gene" with a pen collection of about 300....

My second project is to wire this WE candlestick rotary to a 634AT subset. I am assuming that the phone is a modified 51AL? From my reading, the bulldog receiver is later. The marking at the neck has been obliterated (see photo), which seems to mean that the original model was upgraded. The transmitter has a diaphragm that I assume is older.  The internal wiring seems more modern, similar to the 202 I worked on?

I separately got the subset, which looks to be untouched for 50 years.  The wiring pattern in it did not match the attached diagram I found, so I started rewiring it. The photo of the subset shows the wires I have in place (solid lines) and what I believe I need to add according to the digram (dotted lines).

Specific questions for you all:

1. Is the phone OK as its current mixture of parts, all compatible?
2. Is the phone already properly wired, or do I need to change anything?
3. Is the wiring of the subset correctly following the diagram (which was actually for a 202) and will that wiring scheme work with this phone? The phone doesn't have a fourth line to go to ground, is that OK?
4. Are the connections of the subset to the phone and line correct as I have them?
5. If I add the two connections in the dotted lines, do I have to use solder? The terminals on the side have soldered wires currently.

Thanks again everyone....

Otto
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 12:16:46 AM by oyang »
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline oyang

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634AT wiring
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 12:19:07 AM by oyang »
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline G-Man

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Here is a generic circuit that may be of assistance

Offline poplar1

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It's likely to be a 151AL, since there are two terminal blocks shown. Best way to know is to show the hookswitch and terminals; the 151AL hookswitch has two sets of make contacts, while the 50AL and 51AL each have one set of three make contacts.

The 151AL requires a 5-conductor "harness" from the stem to the base; a 50AL takes a 4-conductor, and the 51AL uses a 3-conductor.

The 151AL also requires 4 conductors from the phone to the subset. The 4th wire connects to BK in the subset (not Ground). The talking capacitor black wire connects to the same BK terminal, and the red talk capacitor wire connects to C. The ringing capacitor connects (yellow) to L2-Y and (slate) to K.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

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This subject has been discussed here:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=8785.msg117918#msg117918

and

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=12028.msg127603#msg127603

and in many other posting on the forum.

Your subset originally was a 634AT,  with an electron tube for ringing on party-lines, but that has been removed, so it a 634A.

Since the set has the bulldog transmitter and two terminal plates, it was most likely converted to a 151AL.  There seems to be a 1 marked on the perch leading the other old stamps. There may be another mark on one of the other sides of the perch.

Your 202 diagram is in principle correct for a 202 (if the black ringer wire is actually connected to the L1 terminal on the coil, or a bridge wire is installed), but you can't use the desk side wiring because a 202 uses a shared wire for the transmitter (TX) and receiver (RX) going to the handset, while a candlestick does not share that wire, but has two separate conductors each to the RX and TX.



« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 09:08:30 AM by unbeldi »

Offline Sargeguy

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Your receiver looks like an earlier 143AW, which is a little old for a dial candlestick.  I would expect a 144.  If you get any older WE sticks you could use it on one of them.
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
TCI /ATCA #4409

Offline poplar1

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Here is a generic circuit that may be of assistance

Unfortunately, Bobby's TCI diagram shows the black lead from the subset going to a "Y-BK" terminal inside the desk stand. In fact, that terminal exists only on the apparatus blank of the non-dial version, and is not present on the dial version. Rather, the black lead from the subset goes directly to BK on the dial.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline oyang

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Thanks everyone for the help.  I'll read your suggestions, go to the referenced postings, digest, tinker, and let you know the outcome.

Otto
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline poplar1

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If you could post photos of the front and back of the hookswitch contacts, this would help determine if you have a 151AL, 51AL or 50AL..
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline oyang

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If you could post photos of the front and back of the hookswitch contacts, this would help determine if you have a 151AL, 51AL or 50AL..

Do these photos show the required elements? Here I show my ignorance again.  Also, I tried to go to those threads given above, and I have to admit that I am lacking the background to understand the nuances of those threads. This is my own fault for not yet getting a good reference book to educate myself first.  For example, I have no idea what the issues and barriers are to "trying to connect a sidetone set to an anti-sidetone subset" because I have no idea what those terms mean.

Can you recommend a good source to read up on the general background defining terms like sidetone, condenser, induction coil, etc? 
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline Phonesrfun

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Can you recommend a good source to read up on the general background defining terms like sidetone, condenser, induction coil, etc? 

Two sources: 

One is invaluable, but costs a little.  That one is "Old Time Telephones, Design, History and Restoration", by Ralph O. Meyer. (2005) You can usually find it for around $25.00  It is by far my favorite and explains many things about telephony.  This is the second book Ralph wrote on the subject.  The first is titled "Old time telephones, technology, Restoration and Repair"  (1995)  I don't have this book and so I don't have an opinion on it, but in the second book, Ralph makes reference to having made many improvements to the things covered in the first.

While you are waiting for that one to arrive, you could go to Colin Chambers' website www.oldphoneguy.net and in the left hand margin select Big Books.  That will take you to a page that has a selection for downloading an Army Technical Manual "Fundamentals of Telephony"  (1953) Also an excellent source, but not as well explained as Ralph's book, and probably goes into too much technical stuff in later chapters and doesn't give nearly as much background as Ralph's book.  But it does a pretty good job of the basics at the beginning.  It is also pretty slanted towards military telephony, but the principles are the same as civilian telephony.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 12:29:07 AM by Phonesrfun »
-Bill G

Offline oyang

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Your receiver looks like an earlier 143AW, which is a little old for a dial candlestick.  I would expect a 144.  If you get any older WE sticks you could use it on one of them.

I got some spare parts some time ago that include a 706B with HA1 receiver, and 706A with HA2 receiver. Would either of these be correct for this phone?  Are the housings and receiver units correctly paired?

From what I gather, the 706 would be what goes on a 151AL with a bulldog transmitter....

Addendum:

Just saw this thread

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11033.0

So their components are switched. 

I assume that the receiver and transmitter need to be paired correctly since they are in a single circuit, and so I need to see what transmitter is in this phone to decide which of these to use?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 12:46:25 AM by oyang »
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline G-Man

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A self-taught course by Ralph Meyer, “Telephony 101” is another good tutorial for the beginner. Ralph conducted this self-study course on the TCI Listserve which has since made it available free of charge to all.
 
Here is the link…

Offline oyang

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Two sources: 


Many thanks; I will invest in that book.  Just FYI, my professional expertise is in molecular biology and medicine, and my background in electronics is limited to the physics course I took in high school. I still remember much of the theory (e.g. Ohm's law, the relationship between electricity and magnetism) but know little of the applied part of electricity (e.g. all those squiggles in the diagrams).

Otto
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they aren't."

Offline Phonesrfun

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Two sources: 


Many thanks; I will invest in that book.  Just FYI, my professional expertise is in molecular biology and medicine, and my background in electronics is limited to the physics course I took in high school. I still remember much of the theory (e.g. Ohm's law, the relationship between electricity and magnetism) but know little of the applied part of electricity (e.g. all those squiggles in the diagrams).

Otto

Seems to me that molecular biology is right up there with rocket science.  If you can understand molecular biology, you should probably catch on to basic electronics.  Telephone electronics are really at the basic end of electronics.  Like anything else, it might take a few iterations through reading to have it all sink in.

BTW, the receiver with the HA1 element you show is fine for the phone.  It is a later version which came out probably in the late 30's and were common replacements for original receivers.  Unbeldi posted some information about the HA2 here:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14227.msg148571#msg148571

« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 12:54:46 AM by Phonesrfun »
-Bill G