Author Topic: AE Railroad Telephones  (Read 9282 times)

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2015, 09:05:04 AM »
Jack, I think you are confusing this phone with others, similar ones that were for standard telephone service.

I may have the purpose of the PTT wrong but I am otherwise talking about Type 60 telephones.

I have to admit that I didn't look vary hard at the PTT - it was too easy to assume that it was being used in a noisy environment.

Jack


unbeldi

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2015, 09:16:45 AM »
Jack, I think you are confusing this phone with others, similar ones that were for standard telephone service.

I may have the purpose of the PTT wrong but I am otherwise talking about Type 60 telephones.

I have to admit that I didn't look vary hard at the PTT - it was too easy to assume that it was being used in a noisy environment.

Jack

The manner in which the telephone makers, AE, WE, KSS&S etc, drew their circuits certainly strongly discourages one from trying to understand the function.

I know they made various versions of this phone for RR and civilian telephone systems, and it is confusing which and when what was made.  Do you know of a AE RR catalog or educational document?   AE made nice training documents for the switching systems, but for RR system?

unbeldi

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2015, 09:51:05 AM »
Here is Jack's diagram with a bit of digital work for easier reference.

Sometimes it's nicer to see these in their aged, yellow version, included too, perhaps useful for more sophisticated color processing, than what I did quickly.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 09:58:37 AM by unbeldi »

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2015, 05:31:45 PM »
I know they made various versions of this phone for RR and civilian telephone systems, and it is confusing which and when what was made.

Do you mean that there were Type 60 telephones for civilian use?

The images of the Type 60 (including the circuit) I posted earlier are of mine and it has a hook latch. I have seen the simplex dialling version in print but I don't have one. Ralph Meyer writes of one in his book (2nd Ed, p156).

Prior to the use of the code '60' is is much harder to distinguish railroad and other telephones. There are many AE telephones that don't appear in the general catalogues - anything special and many things magneto.

Quote
Do you know of a AE RR catalog or educational document?   AE made nice training documents for the switching systems, but for RR system?

No, like you I have been looking but without success. There is very little information about Type 60 and other special purpose telephones. It was only relatively recently that they even appeared in general catalogues. I don't recall Hershey, Smith or Campbell writing outside of the normal telephone network. I should check again - just in case.

If I come across something I'll certainly post it.

Regards
Jack

unbeldi

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2015, 05:46:13 PM »
I know they made various versions of this phone for RR and civilian telephone systems, and it is confusing which and when what was made.

Do you mean that there were Type 60 telephones for civilian use?

The images of the Type 60 (including the circuit) I posted earlier are of mine and it has a hook latch. I have seen the simplex dialling version in print but I don't have one. Ralph Meyer writes of one in his book (2nd Ed, p156).

Prior to the use of the code '60' is is much harder to distinguish railroad and other telephones. There are many AE telephones that don't appear in the general catalogues - anything special and many things magneto.

Quote
Do you know of a AE RR catalog or educational document?   AE made nice training documents for the switching systems, but for RR system?

No, like you I have been looking but without success. There is very little information about Type 60 and other special purpose telephones. It was only relatively recently that they even appeared in general catalogues. I don't recall Hershey, Smith or Campbell writing outside of the normal telephone network. I should check again - just in case.

If I come across something I'll certainly post it.

Regards
Jack

I also have searched in the classic telephony handbooks, very little to nothing...

Well, perhaps I should not have called the other versions "civilian", being a stickler for correct language and terminology myself.  They may have not been installed in non-railroad environments.  What I did mean is that some versions have a 'normal' circuit with 'normal' impedance standards, to say, that they are interoperable with a civilian telephone central office.  These have the AST circuit of the AE Type 40 desk set.  I don't know for sure that they were actually labeled as a Type 60, rather than perhaps some type 4x.

I will post more on this, and I think I will bring that thread back to life.

PS: I think it may be some version of the No. 44 wall set, which looks rather much the same.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 06:16:31 PM by unbeldi »

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2015, 06:20:35 PM »
Well, perhaps I should not have called the other versions "civilian", being a stickler for correct language and terminology myself.

Using the correct terminology is not always easy. What is correct Bell nomenclature is not necessarily correct GPO, PMG, PTT, RTT, Reichpost & etc nomenclature. There are even differences in terminology (official not colloquial) between the former East and West Germany.

Quote
They may have not been installed in non-railroad environments.  What I did mean is that some versions have a 'normal' circuit with 'normal' impedance standards, to say, that they are interoperable with a civilian telephone central office.  These have the AST circuit of the AE Type 40 desk set.  I don't know for sure that they were actually labeled as a Type 60, rather than perhaps some type 4x.

I haven't seen any non railway type 60 telephones but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. I'd be surprised if all railways in the USA use the same technology. I think I have only seen Type 60 telephones in CAT TA-75 and although they exist(ed), there are no simplex dialling versions there.

Anyway, seeking more information...

Regards
Jack

unbeldi

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2015, 06:35:28 PM »
Well, perhaps I should not have called the other versions "civilian", being a stickler for correct language and terminology myself.

Using the correct terminology is not always easy. What is correct Bell nomenclature is not necessarily correct GPO, PMG, PTT, RTT, Reichpost & etc nomenclature. There are even differences in terminology (official not colloquial) between the former East and West Germany.
Agreed.
Quote

Quote
They may have not been installed in non-railroad environments.  What I did mean is that some versions have a 'normal' circuit with 'normal' impedance standards, to say, that they are interoperable with a civilian telephone central office.  These have the AST circuit of the AE Type 40 desk set.  I don't know for sure that they were actually labeled as a Type 60, rather than perhaps some type 4x.

I haven't seen any non railway type 60 telephones but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. I'd be surprised if all railways in the USA use the same technology. I think I have only seen Type 60 telephones in CAT TA-75 and although they exist(ed), there are no simplex dialling versions there.

Anyway, seeking more information...

Regards
Jack

I don't think these Type 60 phones for railroads could possibly have been issued with a dial.  First of all they are not common battery telephones.  Railway systems used selectors and selector keys for signaling, and they operated at voltages up to 400 V DC, or less for short lines.   This is reason that the induction coil had a capacitor in series on the line side, and the ringer was also protected with a separate capacitor.  However, these siding station sets apparently didn't use selectors in front of the ringers, but were rung with AC sent into the loop, and from the station to the dispatcher office, so there probably was no DC on these loops.

Some documentation of railroad practice would be nice.

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2015, 07:04:57 PM »
I don't think these Type 60 phones for railroads could possibly have been issued with a dial.  First of all they are not common battery telephones. 

Simplex dialling telephones aren't conventional CB telephones either. Still, I can't say what was or was not without more information and as I noted, I don't know if all USA railroads used the same technology.

Thanks for the insights. I look forward to the discovery of the missing reference manuals.

Regards
Jack



unbeldi

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2015, 07:16:54 PM »
I don't think these Type 60 phones for railroads could possibly have been issued with a dial.  First of all they are not common battery telephones. 

Simplex dialling telephones aren't conventional CB telephones either. Still, I can't say what was or was not without more information and as I noted, I don't know if all USA railroads used the same technology.

Thanks for the insights. I look forward to the discovery of the missing reference manuals.

Regards
Jack

I am wondering whether Automatic Electric called this wall set the Type 60 to indicate its compatibility with the Western Electric Type 60 rail dispatching systems, that had many pieces with the number 60 as designation,  60AP selector, 160, ...


[PS:  hmm,   I am not sure their system had the type number 60, actually.... but many parts did.]
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 09:04:12 PM by unbeldi »

Offline G-Man

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2015, 10:43:41 PM »
Hello Jack-
Perhaps this jpg will be of use regarding Type-60 magneto telephone sets.

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2015, 11:08:22 PM »
Hello Jack-
Perhaps this jpg will be of use regarding Type-60 magneto telephone sets.

Thanks G-Man. It seems that AE think the button is at least partly for noise reduction. The other part is efficiency which I guess also comes down to the signal-to-noise ratio.

Party line operation is specifically mentioned and yet the phone shown doesn't seem to have a hook latch. Of course the privacy aspect has a different priority in a closed system such as a railway or other utility. Dialling does too for that matter - the railway probably has a PAX but there may not be any need for a siding phone to access it. I expect it is different with different utilities.

So, that's more documentation that I had before - perhaps more will surface.

Where is that page from G-Man?

Thanks again
Jack



Offline G-Man

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2015, 11:18:55 PM »
At one point, our telephone company briefly maintained Southern Pacific railroad telephone systems.
 
If, on the rare occasion, a r.o.w. magneto station needed to be interconnected with the company’s Western Electric 701 pabx or “City” line, it was switched to the pbx switchboard by the dispatcher.
 
Off-hand, I don’t recall what document this entry came from.

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2015, 11:23:57 PM »
I found a grubby AE 60 circuit that includes a dial - but not the simplex version.

I saw a long list of Type 60 variations somewhere - if only I could remember where...

Jack

unbeldi

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2015, 08:48:58 AM »
I found a grubby AE 60 circuit that includes a dial - but not the simplex version.

I saw a long list of Type 60 variations somewhere - if only I could remember where...

Jack

Jack, this is what I called the "civilian" version.   But, after all this discussion, I am more convinced that it was not called a model 60 at all.  This circuit is identical to the AE 40 and 50 in fact, with the addition of the generator and an option to run the transmitter from a local battery.  I think this is a variety of the model 44.  The circuit has really nothing in common with the Type 60 (other than having a transmitter and receiver).


PS: The diagram originated in this topic.  It is the same one that I mentioned earlier.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 09:18:22 AM by unbeldi »

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE Railroad Telephones
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2015, 05:55:45 PM »
Jack, this is what I called the "civilian" version.   But, after all this discussion, I am more convinced that it was not called a model 60 at all.

I didn't notice that the ID number had been edited (nor did I realise where it had come from - sorry about that). If it was originally "65" is is a Type 60 but as I noted earlier, there were quite a few Type 60 variations - not all of them specifically railway siding telephones. I guess a valid question is "what is a Type 60?", it may be more than just a railway siding telephone.

I realise that there is a Type 44 but I have not seen any variations of that - it is just a Type 50 in a different enclosure. It was available in manual or auto with some handset options. Introduced about 1944 and in service for about a decade - apparently superseded by the AE 90.

Additional catalogues would help...

Jack