AE Railroad Telephones

[G-Man]

Jack, the Automatic Electric catalogs show other “stock” instruments rearranged for local-battery service and reclassified for railroad service. They still retained their original model numbers, such as, types-80 and 183; the “L” ordering codes were what differentiated them from their look-alike "standard" models.
 
 I suspect that it is possible another version of the type-60 also existed for use on pstn subscriber lines.

[Jack Ryan]

G-Man, that is quite possible but I think there are still more Type 60 "special" phones to be found such as the one using simplex dialling.

I am told that simplex dialling was used by utilities such as railways in the US. I haven't seen AE simplex dialling telephones used in Canada or NZ on rural party lines or anywhere else.

Anyway, I can't insist that such phones exist without evidence so I'll just have to wait.

Jack

[unbeldi]

G-Man, that is quite possible but I think there are still more Type 60 "special" phones to be found such as the one using simplex dialling.

I am told that simplex dialling was used by utilities such as railways in the US. I haven't seen AE simplex dialling telephones used in Canada or NZ on rural party lines or anywhere else.

Anyway, I can't insist that such phones exist without evidence so I'll just have to wait.

Jack

My impression has been that simplex dialing was used primarily on rural lines in Canada, but I seemed to recall it has also been linked to Australia, and New Zealand (I'll let you be the expert voice on that).  Just about the only catalogs that mention it, IIRC, are the Northern Electric catalogs.  I seem to recall the N717AP and CG sets, and their 500-type successors.

[Jack Ryan]

My impression has been that simplex dialing was used primarily on rural lines in Canada, but I seemed to recall it has also been linked to Australia, and New Zealand (I'll let you be the expert voice on that).  Just about the only catalogs that mention it, IIRC, are the Northern Electric catalogs.  I seem to recall the N717AP and CG sets, and their 500-type successors.

Canada and New Zealand made extensive use of simplex dialling on rural party lines. In Australia simplex dialling was used on 4-10 auto party lines but it was not very common.

The only reference books that deal with simplex dialling that I have seen are authored by AE people and I am sure that AE made such phones. If ever I (re)discover some proper evidence I'll post it. Until then I'll just have to keep my eyes open.

Jack

[Jack Ryan]

Here is a simplex dialling phone with hook-latch.

Unfortunately there is no circuit diagram.

Hmm - the images failed a security check.

Edit: Images added in a PDF.

Jack

[G-Man]

Jack, in a thread from 2012, canuckphoneguy commented on an instrument he saw during a visit to Wayne, Alberta. He did not realize its significance; it is an Ericsson originally manufactured for combination magneto/simplex dialing. I identified it as such, in another thread.
 
This system was used especially in the prairie provinces of Canada and other extremely remote locations.
 
Northern Electric also manufactured several models arranged for this type of service, including some in the 500-set category. Practices and schematics for them and other manufacturers are in the TCI Library.
 
While there may have been a few subscriber simplex dialing systems in the U.S. in the early ‘30s, it never really caught on. While AECo may have also manufactured some sets, it most likely would have been to serve a very small niche market.
 
Because of the way their networks were configured, most railroads in the U.S. likely did not adopt it on a wide scale, if at all. If a long line needed to connect to an inner-office or  outside line, one of their many pbx switchboards would have been able to handle the scant traffic for such connections.
 This particular telephone (the Wayne, Alberta, Ericsson) appears to have been converted over to standard loop-dialing and the crank removed, once the exchange serving Wayne was cut-over.
 
 I posted the instructions on how to place a call on it, in an earlier thread…
 

If you were calling another party on your own line, you simply turned the crank on the magneto. canuckphoneguy posted photos of one that he came across during a road trip last August.  The crank had been removed when the converted to fully automatic service.

Here is a link to his thread- http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7391.0
 
 

Here are the instructions to the subscribers as posted on its number card:

LIFT HANDSET AND LISTEN
IF LINE IS FREE PRESS CALL BUTTON
PARTY CALL: TURN HANDLE FOR CODE RING
CENTRAL CALL: DIAL CENTRAL NUMBER

[G-Man]

Jack, in a thread from 2012, canuckphoneguy commented on an instrument he saw during a visit to Wayne, Alberta. He did not realize its significance; it is an Ericsson originally manufactured for combination magneto/simplex dialing. I identified it as such, in another thread.
 
This system was used especially in the prairie provinces of Canada and other extremely remote locations.
 
Northern Electric also manufactured several models arranged for this type of service, including some in the 500-set category. Practices and schematics for them and other manufacturers are in the TCI Library.
 
While there may have been a few subscriber simplex dialing systems in the U.S. in the early ‘30s, it never really caught on. While AECo may have also manufactured some sets, it most likely would have been to serve a very small niche market.
 
Because of the way their networks were configured, most railroads in the U.S. likely did not adopt it on a wide scale, if at all. If a long line (magneto) needed to connect to an inner-office or  outside line, one of their many pbx switchboards would have been able to handle the scant traffic for such connections.

 This particular telephone (the Wayne, Alberta, Ericsson) appears to have been converted over to standard loop-dialing and the crank removed, once the exchange serving Wayne was cut-over.
 
 I posted the instructions on how to place a call on it, in an earlier thread…
 

If you were calling another party on your own line, you simply turned the crank on the magneto.canuckphoneguy posted photos of one that he came across during a road trip last August.  The crank had been removed when the converted to fully automatic service.
 
 Here is a link to his thread- http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=7391.0
 
 

Here are the instructions to the subscribers as posted on its number card:
 
 LIFT HANDSET AND LISTEN
 IF LINE IS FREE PRESS CALL BUTTON
 PARTY CALL: TURN HANDLE FOR CODE RING
 CENTRAL CALL: DIAL CENTRAL NUMBER

[G-Man]

Speaking of Automatic Electric, here is another thread concerning an A.E./Amercian Electric deskstand and subset arranged for combination magneto/simplex dialing:
 

Here's an example of a dial and crank set from AE (even if the phone is disconnected from the subset both belong originally together):

Yes, I was able to identify your instrument as being capable of hybrid signaling back in Febuary-
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=8723.0
G-Man
Re: AE 21 candlestick wiring problem
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 06:08:13 AM »
 
Your ringer box and telephone set was not intended for use on standard loop dialing lines.
Notice that the dial is connected to ground through the switchook, with the other side going to both sides of the line through the center tap of the ringer coils.
As with a couple of other instruments that have surfaced on the list lately, yours was used on a composite/simplex dialing line that allowed for both magneto and automatic signaling.
Rural telephone companies located mostly in Canada were the primary users of these types of sets.

G-Man
Re: AE 21 candlestick wiring problem« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 06:11:58 AM »

I forgot to add that your instrument and magneto subset is probably worth much more than it being hacked into a more common loop dial instrument.

[G-Man]

Here is a link describing the Ericsson instruments:
http://www.britishtelephones.com/ericsson/n2122.htm
 

[Jack Ryan]

Thanks G-Man.

I am quite familiar with the use of simplex dialling sets in Canada and New Zealand and similar sets were used in Australia. I have examples of British Ericsson sets that were used in Canada and NZ and NE sets that were used in Canada. I also have an AE set which I believe to be a Type 60 that was used in the USA but I don't know by whom - I imaging a utility, possibly a railway.

The AE 21 was an interesting find - a "special"; I would have liked that. I imagine it has been "converted" by now. I found an AE step base (sorry, no official name) version on eBay some time ago but someone with much deeper pockets than I took that one home.

I haven't seen AE simplex dialling sets used outside of the USA so I assume they were used in the USA. I just don't know where they were used or by whom.

I tried to post pictures of my "Type 60" simplex dialling set earlier but the pictures evidently contain a security hazard. I have another Type 60 of the more usual configuration. I have Type 44 sets as well but they are quite different.

Regards
Jack

[G-Man]

As Bruce Crawford and others have indicated through the years, simplex dialing never really caught on in the U.S. Part of the reason being that special line equipment would have been needed in the central office, and since there would have been a lower demand, the instruments also would have been more expensive.
 
Obviously they were used in the U.S. for some specialized applications, but again, the demand would have been low.
 
Also, until the R.E.A. loan program was instituted in the early 1950s, rural automatic dial systems were out numbered by magneto and manual exchanges; the annual Telephony Yearbooks bears this out.
 
Magneto exchanges were much less expensive than dial and were much more capable of coping with the  long-length, out of spec outside plant that was then prevalent in most rural areas.
 
Canada, on the other hand, has much larger expanses of territory with much lower numbers of residents. The government subsidized telcos were mandated to serve these remote inhabitants; consequently, higher cost was less of an issue.

[Jack Ryan]

Cost was always an issue here as elsewhere and the trade-off between cost and equal access is always a thorny issue. Economists are well able to calculate the cost of provision per subscriber but a cost benefit analysis involves costing social issues and government policy; something that is both emotive and illusive to this day.

There were not many auto party lines in Australia and those that existed often served small communities that would normally be served by a manual exchange had there been an available operator. Consequently, many of these small (say 40 subscribers) auto exchanges were parented by manual exchanges in the nearest population centre. These exchanges did not support very long lines (party or otherwise) and had a working limit of 850 ohms (I think).

In the early 1970s the PMG was attempting to automate the remaining manual services at the extremities of the network. In a report from 1971:

In Queensland there are almost 1,000 lines longer than 20 miles, with 280 of these exceeding 50 miles. Most are party lines, for subscribers in these areas readily accept party sharing as an economic compromise. However, the cost of building a new line in 70 lb. c.c. wire pairs can be $700 per mile, which is still very expensive per party past the 15 mile radial distance now provided by the Department.

At the time, the technology used to provide auto party lines was not up to these line lengths so a new system was developed.

The party line must be metallic, and a loop resistance of 2500 ohms is tolerable with full safety factor on the line relays. A leakage of 14,000 ohms is safe.

To my knowledge, these were the last party line developments.

Jack

[poplar1]

Another railroad phone. This one does not have a generator, and the hole for the crank has a blank cover. Seller stated:

This is a Automatic Electric Monophone that once was used in the Houlton Maine area by the Bangor and Aroostook Railroad

Ebay auction closed with no bids; opening bid asked was $89.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151870071049

[unbeldi]

Another railroad phone. This one does not have a generator, and the hole for the crank has a blank cover. Seller stated:

This is a Automatic Electric Monophone that once was used in the Houlton Maine area by the Bangor and Aroostook Railroad

Ebay auction closed with no bids; opening bid asked was $89.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151870071049

Yes, I was watching that.   This one still has the Type 41 handset, and that leads me to believe now that this type was made even before 1960.   One could follow AE's tendency to number phones by their year and assume the same for the Type 60.

It also doesn't have the ringer, so it was probably used directly on the main line, probably connected through a selector set, which had the ringer built in.

Another one ended yesterday and it had the generator ($100, no bids).

This shows the set complete with its battery box.

[Jack Ryan]

Yes, I was watching that.   This one still has the Type 41 handset, and that leads me to believe now that this type was made even before 1960.   One could follow AE's tendency to number phones by their year and assume the same for the Type 60.

I think that's a Type 25 anti-noise handset but it doesn't change the argument.

I think the Type 60 was available in 1950 because it appears in documents (CAT 1712 Replacement Parts For Monophones) that predate the Type 51 dial.

Jack