Author Topic: What is this part called? -> AE40 Lift  (Read 7604 times)

Offline Babybearjs

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2015, 10:34:08 PM »
Nice AE 40's.... do they have their AE 50 counterparts?
John

unbeldi

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2015, 10:48:35 PM »
Here are two of the lift features of the AE 40. The set was manufactured between 1955 and 1958, by my 'guess'.

Shown are the molded grip features in the sides of the cradle posts, as well as the holes in the metal saddles on each cradle recess, I suppose they could be called a fulcrum.

I also looked at the set again, that has the grip hole in the apparently wrong position.  Well, it turns out that only one side of the cradle has the hole.  The others side is without it.  So, this means the set was refurbished and received a new set of saddles, or at least one replacement, but of the wrong kind and mounted on the wrong side.


I haven't looked closely but I assumed that the blocks would simply swap sides to move the hole to the rear.

Jack

That's my assumption too, but I haven't bothered trying to remove the metal parts.  I presume they come apart somehow when one removes the four screws from the inside housing (one on each side of each plunger hole.


RE: bands.  Yes, I was only considering the black sets.  I know the colored one continued the feature.

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2015, 12:19:45 AM »
Oh my goodness! I just stumbled upon this topic. 4 pages of posts that I want to reply to every one of!

Blocks, Carry Bars and lifts:
I have no idea what proper names would be but I have usually referred to the most common ones that are one piece as a Carry Bar. By not calling it a Carry Handle it is better differentiated from the Butlers Handle. The lack of a Bar/Handle on a 40 that started this topic has what I usually refer to as Blocks. Blocks definitely were available without the hole for a Buttlers Handle initially. Either Blocks or a Carry Bar are a neccesity on a 40 because the hook switch screws into it from inside the phone. The blocks can be swapped from left to right side which moves the holes from closer to the rear to closer to the front. I believe closer to the rear is proper.

There were AE 40's with no Carry Bar or Buttlers Handle, just Blocks without holes. There is even a version of the 40 with NO finger indents in the sides to aid in carrying it around. It may not have ever been in regular production but I have seen an Ivory one, I think Gary Goff may be its owner.

I suspect that the progression quickly went from Blocks without holes, to Blocks with holes for a Butlers Handle and then to the more familiar Carry Bar. Looking at the Carry Bar it seems quite obvious that it was a quick redesign of the blocks to add an easy way to carry the phone around. The Bar sweeps back from the back edge of the blocks on each side in order to provide a bit more room to get your fingers underneath the bar. It doesn't look at all as though it was a part of the AE 40's original design but more like an after thought.

It is just a guess but I would think that the Carry Bar was into production and standard equipment on all 40's within a couple of years of the 40 being released. They were likely added to phones (upgraded) later on going through refurb in a lot of instances.

Handset Caps and Bands:
The type 38 handsets used on AE 34 and 35 phones (the predecesors to the 40 and 50) all had metal bands with most being painted black and a few getting the deluxe chrome treatment.

The type 41 handsets initially either had chromed bands or black painted brass bands just like the older type 38 handsets from 34 and 35 sets. The chrome bands carried on as the deluxe treatment for the life of the 40/50 production but there were a couple of changes to the non deluxe handset caps. The black metal banded type 41 handsets are quite rare. Remember, this phone came out right as WW2 was getting underway and while the UK, Australua, New Zealand and the UK were involved from September 1939 the USA would soon be involved as well. Metal wasn't to be wasted. Someone at AE quickly realized that the grooved look of the black metal bands could easily be cut into the handset caps eliminating the black painted brass band on the majority of 40's that were the basic models. This change was made quite quickly after the introduction of the 40/50 and then before long the basic model caps were again redesigned eliminating the cuting of the grooves. They changed to molding the caps in one piece to have the "layered look" which is by far the most common type of cap on basic (non banded) model 40's and 50's.

Plunger Buttons:
Here I dont know which came first. My guess is that WW2 again had an influence. Most buttons that I see were chrome regardless of whether the phone was to be basic or deluxe. But there are balck bakelite plungers out there and there are brass painted black plungers out there. Originally my thought was that the black bakelite buttons were a later cost saving item but I have seen some pretty old looking 40's that had bakelite buttons in them. So maybe black bakelite buttons on the basic sets and chromed brass buttons on the deluxe sets was the plan. Maybe once the war ended there was lots of brass now available and it just became easier to make them all from brass. No idea but all three scenarios exist.

All just my thoughts on the subject....

Terry
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 12:16:48 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2015, 01:49:48 AM »
Blocks, Carry Bars and lifts:
I suspect that the progression quickly went from Blocks, to Blocks with holes for a Butlers Handle and then to the more familiar Carry Bar. Looking at the Carry Bar it seems quite obvious that it was a quick redesign of the blocks to add an easy way to carry the phone around. The Bar sweeps back from the back edge of the blocks on each side in order to provide a bit more room to get your fingers underneath the bar. It doesn't look at all as though it was a part of the AE 40's original design but more like an after thought.

It is just a guess but I would think that the Carry Bar was into production and standard equipment on all 40's within a couple of years of the 40 being released. They were likely added to phones (upgraded) later on going through refurb in a lot of instances.

There are not enough catalogues to get good time resolution but:

1940: Butler Lift Handle (likely an option) and handset bands
1944: Ditto
1950: Solid Lift Handle and no bands on poverty pack telephones. Bands for Coloured phones.

Certainly refurbs change the original phones making it difficult to form an accurate picture.

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Handset Caps and Bands:
The type 41 handsets initially either had chromed bands or black painted brass bands just like the type 38 handsets. The chrome bands carried on as the deluxe treatment for the life of the 40/50 production but there were a couple of changes to the non deluxe handset caps. The black metal banded type 41 handsets are quite rare.

I would have to look more closly but I know I have both real bands and grooved caps.

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Someone at AE quickly realized that the groved look of the black metal bands could easily be cut into the handset caps eliminating the black painted brass band on the majority of 40's that were the basic models. This change was made quite quickly after the introduction of the 40/50 and then before long the basic model caps were again redesigned eliminating the cuting of the grooves. They changed to molding the caps in one piece to have the "layered look" which is by far the most common type of cap on basic model 40's and 50's.

The catalogues don't support this timeline but I have no doubt that the sequence of events is correct. In 1944 the parts list still shows brass bands. Despite the shortage of metal during the war, it seems the brass bands were dropped after the war.

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Plunger Buttons:
Here I dont know which came first. My guess is that WW2 again had an influence. Most buttons that I see were chrome irregardless of whether the phone was to be basic or deluxe. But there are balck bakelite plungers out there and there are brass painted black plungers out there. Originally my thought was that the black bakelite buttons were a later cost saving item but I have seen some pretty old looking 40's that had bakelite buttons in them. So maybe black bakelite buttons on the basic sets and chromed brass buttons on the deluxe sets was the plan. Maybe once the war ended there was lots of brass now available and it just became easier to make them all from brass. No idea but all three scenarios exist.

I haven't taken enough notice - I'll have to start. Plastic plungers were used elsewhere in the world as a cost saving exercise - usually in the 1950s.

Nothing is ever straight forward is it and being in Australia I dont have the sample space you have.

Jack

unbeldi

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2015, 10:59:28 AM »
Going by the patent record, the history is quite different, but this doesn't mean that all patents were implemented immediately.

The fixed-bridge bar finger lift was actually patented just after the first patent of the telephone type itself. At that time also two types of butler handles were published, the well-known one, and a T-shaped variety.
The four grip depressions on the side were not in the original patent, but appeared in another version shortly after.

I also would not classify the band-less black handsets as 'poverty' issuance.  I think by 1950, the chrome bands simply looked   out-of-synch with modern design styles. Old-fashioned Art Deco was out of style after WW-II, and I have been rather surprised that the AE 40 even lasted so long, even into the early 1960s.  I think this speaks of the exceptional quality of design for this phone.

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2015, 05:15:09 PM »
Going by the patent record, the history is quite different, but this doesn't mean that all patents were implemented immediately.

I agree - and often what was patented was not implemented at all.

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The fixed-bridge bar finger lift was actually patented just after the first patent of the telephone type itself. At that time also two types of butler handles were published, the well-known one, and a T-shaped variety.
The four grip depressions on the side were not in the original patent, but appeared in another version shortly after.

Yes and as I said earlier, there are not enough catalogues to get an accurate time line. However, if a feature is not listed in any known catalogue or replacement parts listings there is a pretty good chance (but not certainty) that the feature was not offered.

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I also would not classify the band-less black handsets as 'poverty' issuance.  I think by 1950, the chrome bands simply looked   out-of-synch with modern design styles.

I wouldn't normally either it was more a comment on the way the feature was described previously.

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Old-fashioned Art Deco was out of style after WW-II, and I have been rather surprised that the AE 40 even lasted so long, even into the early 1960s.  I think this speaks of the exceptional quality of design for this phone.

I agree; it was a well designed and executed telephone - albeit brittle. I'm not sure when production stopped but AE said manufacturing had been discontinued in December 1957. Canadian and Italian production may have continued past that date - I don't know.

Jack

unbeldi

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2015, 05:26:27 PM »


I agree; it was a well designed and executed telephone - albeit brittle. I'm not sure when production stopped but AE said manufacturing had been discontinued in December 1957. Canadian and Italian production may have continued past that date - I don't know.

Jack

It was discontinued in Chicago that year, but at Northlake they certainly made them.  I have a Northlake set that is clearly dated, with a date stamp (!) in 1958:  10-58-11

I remember reading that "discontinued" statement in a catalog and I was confused too by it at first.  Didn't we discuss that recently too?

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2015, 05:45:01 PM »
It was discontinued in Chicago that year, but at Northlake they certainly made them.  I have a Northlake set that is clearly dated, with a date stamp (!) in 1958:  10-58-11

I remember reading that "discontinued" statement in a catalog and I was confused too by it at first.  Didn't we discuss that recently too?

There was a discussion and I probably bookmarked it to follow up "later". According to the catalogue statement, parts were still manufactured after that date. However, reports of the death of the AE 40 may well have been exaggerated.

Jack

unbeldi

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2015, 05:48:50 PM »
One interesting aspect is that the sets made in Northlake don't show any patents anymore on the decal, at least not those that I have seen. But I don't know if those sets are always date-stamped.

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2015, 06:04:52 PM »
One interesting aspect is that the sets made in Northlake don't show any patents anymore on the decal, at least not those that I have seen. But I don't know if those sets are always date-stamped.

I'm afraid I've only learnt enough to realise how much I don't know.

There are some AE 40s with original felt bottoms - where did they come from?
Some have a markedly different code (not starting with 40 or 41) - what does that mean?

Then there is the model with a button near the cradle that issues a pulse from a (high voltage) local battery. It serves the function of a magneto. I haven't seen this documented anywhere.

I don't think the hook latch models aren't catalogued either.

and so it goes on...

Jack

unbeldi

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2015, 06:16:18 PM »

I'm afraid I've only learnt enough to realise how much I don't know.
I would call that the power of knowledge.


Offline AE_Collector

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2015, 08:57:11 PM »
There was discussion on here awile back about the felt covering. I cant recall now if a consensus was reached or not. My gut feeling was that it was a solution to the rubber shortage during the war since the 40's used a fair bit of rubber in the base ring. But I am only guessing.

There are some AE 40's with the little auxilary button up near the cradle. Just like the line 3 button on AE 47 sets. And there are AE 80's with a similar option button by the cradle. If there was an add on to make the 40 usable as a magneto set using this button, I would think it was just one of many optional uses of the button. I have heard the 40's with this button referred to as 41 sets and the 80 variants with the button referred to as 81 sets.

Terry
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 04:11:43 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2015, 10:07:38 PM »
There was discussion on here awile back about the felt covering. I cant recall now if a consensus was reached or not. My gut feeling was that it was a solution to the rubber shortage during the war since the 40's used a fair bit of rubber in the base ring. But I am only guessing.

The felt bottomed AE 40s I have come across seem to be much newer than WW2 - closer to the last production items.

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There are some AE 40's with the little auxilary button up near the cradle. Just like the line 3 button on AE 47 sets. And there are AE 80's with a similar option button by the cradle. If there was an add on to make the 40 usable as a magneto set using this button, I woukd think it was just one if many optional uses of the button. I have heard tge 40's with this button referred to as 41 sets and the 80 variants with the button referred to as 81 sets.

There were probably multiple uses for the button but none of those uses appear in catalogues. I myself have only seen this button used to drop an indicator at a manual exchange.

There were AE 80s with a button but I think that was the end of the similarity. The AE 80 button might have had multiple uses as well but I have only seen the 81 version where it was part of the hook latch.

There were 41 type AE 40s as well but this did not relate to a button - I don't recall ever seeing a 41 type AE 40 with a button but there probably were some. The type 41 AE 40 used the later high impedance (and smaller) ringer. The AE 40 didn't use a button in its hook latch - it used a lever/switch around a hook plunger. I haven't seen that in a catalogue either.

Regards
Jack


Offline AE_Collector

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2015, 10:30:27 PM »
There were 41 type AE 40s as well but this did not relate to a button - I don't recall ever seeing a 41 type AE 40 with a button but there probably were some. The type 41 AE 40 used the later high impedance (and smaller) ringer. The AE 40 didn't use a button in its hook latch - it used a lever/switch around a hook plunger. I haven't seen that in a catalogue either.

Regards
Jack

Are you referring to when the base numbering changed from L40xx numbering to L41xx numbering? Do you feel that the change in ringer types corresponded with that portion of the numbering change?

The reference to 41 sets may well have been something that the old timers that I worked with when I was in my 20's got in the habit of calling the 40 with the extra switch rather than an official AE model number at that time. I was lucky enough to work in the PABX department when I only had a couple of years in as an installer. One use for these sets was as stations on the old AE 19-B5 or 22-X PABX's. I am really losing my memory apparently but I think it was that stations needed a grounding button to seize an outside line but could dial an internal station or the PBX operator. Not to be confused with later ground start PBX trunks, this was how that particular PBX worked. Most of them that we removed and junked after conversion to more modern electronic systems had AE80's on them with the extra button or just a field installed button drilled into the case but occasionally we ran into the 40 sets with the button. Maybe the 40 had to be ordered from AE with the correct button configuration or maybe it had several optional configurations.

Terry
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 04:16:46 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: What is this part called?
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2015, 12:34:50 AM »
Are you referring to when the base numbering changed from L40xx numbering to L41xx numbering? Do you feel that the change in ringer types corresponded with that portion of the numbering change?

Yes, there is a very high correlation between the base numbering and the type of ringer. The 40 series had the older large ringer and the 41 series had the new smaller ringer. I forget the ringer codes at the moment. The coding system changed at the same time so the the new 41 codes are the same as the AE 47 codes and can, for the most part, be decoded.

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I think it was stations needed a grounding button to seize an outside line but coukd dial an internal station or the PBX operator. Not to be confused with later ground start PBX trunks, this was how that particular PBX worked.

That is the way many non North American PABXs work; the button either recalls the operator or dial tone. I haven't seen any AE telephones configured this way - because of low initial numbers, they might be pretty rare now.

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Most of them that we removed and junked after conversion to more modern systems

Another reason they might be difficult to find...

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Maybe the 40 had to be ordered from AE with the correct button configuration or maybe it had several optional configurations.

Most likely.

Still, the only use I have found is the "kick" function I described earlier. Perhaps there were more of these or perhaps I am just lucky. Have you come across this function before?

Regards
Jack