Author Topic: Round vs. Flat wire?  (Read 3049 times)

Offline cloyd

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Round vs. Flat wire?
« on: April 17, 2016, 10:50:52 AM »
I am finishing the final connections on my whole house wiring for old phones and I need to make about sixteen short patch cords from the Cat3 jack to a PBX.  The round cable for in-wall installations cost half as much as the flat.  It will go through the wall so I thought, better safe than sorry, use the round and save some money.

Is this the right call or will it be a hassle to terminate the ends of the round cord x 32 with RJ-11?  This project has been a hassle so, for once, I'll get some advice beforehand.

Thanks,

Tina
-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Van Gogh -- 1885

Offline jsowers

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2016, 11:43:32 AM »
You may want to make and try one station wire cable to see if it works. Flat modular cable is stranded wire and much more flexible and the "teeth" of the modular connector make better contact being crimped onto stranded wire. If you strip one conductor, you see strands of wire instead of one thick wire. The station wire you're using isn't stranded and it may work fine. I'd make a cable and hook it up to a phone while listening to the signal and try moving both ends of the wire to make sure it doesn't lose connection or make noise.

I've terminated tens of thousands of RJ45 ends on Cat5 wire and they've held for ten or more years with no problem, but I don't have much experience using phone station wire, just the flat modular cable. Has anyone else terminated station wire successfully with a modular plug? Do they have to be specially made to accept round wire? You would need to fan out the end of the wire so it's flat, I would assume, and trim it off neatly before crimping. Also if you have a cable checker, be sure to test all the cables.

Tina, it's great you're almost through. Post some pictures when you finish to show us your handiwork.
Jonathan

Offline cloyd

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2016, 12:02:19 PM »
Thank you Jonathan, based on what you wrote, I think I'll just go with the flat cable.  "Easy and done" is my new mantra.

Tina
-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Van Gogh -- 1885

Offline AL_as_needed

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2016, 12:52:34 PM »
To your remark about terminating round wire jsowers, you are correct.

I have used round often in walls when doing electrical/comms work in houses. Normally round cable is run into a terminal block on the backside of a wall outlet with spade connectors, but it can be run into a connector. It takes some getting used to however as you need to strip the outer insulation about an inch or so shorter than the inner wires to fan them out.

It's also important to make sure you get the pairs in the correct sequence when installing the ends, sometimes handy to have a blown up picture handy to double check. For sake of neatness and looks you can also slide some heat shrink tubing on tidy up the gap in the outer insulation, prior to crimping on the end of course.
TWinbrook7

Offline poplar1

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2016, 01:15:11 PM »
I am finishing the final connections on my whole house wiring for old phones and I need to make about sixteen short patch cords from the Cat3 jack to a PBX.  The round cable for in-wall installations cost half as much as the flat.  It will go through the wall so I thought, better safe than sorry, use the round and save some money.

Is this the right call or will it be a hassle to terminate the ends of the round cord x 32 with RJ-11?  This project has been a hassle so, for once, I'll get some advice beforehand.

Thanks,

Tina

There are two different kinds of crimp-on modular plugs: The most common ones are for stranded wire or tinsel wire--i.e., cords used on phones. There is another type for solid wire -- the type used for "inside wiring", going to the various rooms.  (However, many people use the same plugs for either solid wire or telephones.)

By "short patch cords" does this mean that you are terminating the individual wire runs on jacks on both ends: one end in each room, and the other end on a baseboard type jack on the wall near the Panasonic system? Then running patch cords between those jacks and the system? If so, rather than make your own patch cords, you might just want to buy line cords for that short distance, rather than make your own cords. They are more reliable than home-made cords. 2-conductor line cords are all that are needed for single line phones.

In each room, it is better to install a baseboard (or flush) jack rather than have the same wire you pulled from the phone room go directly into the phone. That solid wire is not meant to be moved around, but should be stationary.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline podor

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2016, 03:49:53 PM »
I built patch cords out of Cat5 solid core wiring to my Panasonic 616 just to cut down on the clutter of so many individual 2 wire cords. Not to mention that 1/3 of the cords I bought had the polarity reversed (no fun trying to diagnose). The solid core is fine, only if you won't be moving the wires. I've had a few wires fatigue and break. If you need something flexible, go with the stranded wire.

Offline TelePlay

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2016, 05:09:09 PM »
Some time ago, I found this seller who seems to claim these are RJ-11 6P4C modular connectors take 4 wires of solid phone cables. Description is a bit cryptic and photos aren't the best. Didn't buy any but won't these fit cloyds needs? Yes, they do make solid wire RJ-45 modular connectors but this is the first that I can remember seeing solid wire RJ-11 modular connectors. Price is right.

Am I missing something here or could these be used with station wiring? Anyone have/use these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360690702964
            John . . .

              

Victor Laszlo

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2016, 08:10:39 PM »
If I understand the original question, the answer to how to install a key system correctly, as the pros do it, such as a Panasonic system, is as follows:

Make a short 25-pair harness that terminates in as many 6p4c male ends that you need to plug into the Panasonic KSU jacks.  The accepted color code is to start with the W/Bl pair for the station jacks, and use the violet pairs for the CO lines.  If the key sets use 2 pairs, terminate the 25-pair cable 2 pairs at a time in the plugs. If the KSU is a newer digital one, use only one pair. I prefer to use 2 pairs per plug, in case in the future I need to retrofit a different KSU that requires 2 pairs per station.  Terminate the other end of the 25-pair cable on the first row of a 66M50 block. Terminate the house wiring along the last row of the 66M50, and cross-connect the KSU jacks to the house wiring using bridging clips.

(never use cord, tinsel, "flat" cables, etc. Use only 24-gauge or 22-gauge solid, twisted pair wire. Flat cordage does not have twisted pairs, and you will get crosstalk if you run any substantial lengths of it. )

The alternative to using one 66M50 block is to use two of them, one for the KSU outputs and one for the house wiring. Then just mount two mushrooms and use cross-connection wire to assign the ports to the station wiring.

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2016, 08:39:23 PM »
Yeah weve been through all that already Victor. It started here in this topic:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15712.0

Then it continued here:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=15766.0

At this point we arent 100% certain if the house wiring is all in and terminated, possibly with a jack field at the PBX end, thus the short patch cord requirement. If it are just short patch cords that are required, I too would suggest trying to purchase them rather than making them. There shouldn't be a cross talk problem in cords that are just a couple of feet long.

Once the project is done I think I will merge these topics all together into one as it was all the same project. Generally we prefer to keep everything about one project be it a phone or a wiring project in the same topic for continuity.

Next Should be the "As Built" pictures!

Terry
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 08:44:13 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline cloyd

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2016, 04:43:25 PM »
Thank you for all of the input!

I will get finished project pictures uploaded asap.  This is a busy time for me.  Tonight we have parent-teacher conferences, tomorrow after school I scheduled an AP Biology review session, Thursday I have my year-end conference with the boss that entails all kinds of mickey mouse work to prepare.  Not to mention the regular teaching thing that I have to do.  I think I would prefer to dig ditches with a back hoe.  I do enjoy the kids though.

Tina
-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Van Gogh -- 1885

Offline NorthernElectric

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2016, 07:05:52 PM »
This is a busy time for me.  Tonight we have parent-teacher conferences, tomorrow after school I scheduled an AP Biology review session, Thursday I have my year-end conference with the boss that entails all kinds of mickey mouse work to prepare.  Not to mention the regular teaching thing that I have to do.

You're gonna do all that stuff before you get your phones hooked up?  Some folks have their priorities all mixed up!   ;D
Cliff

Offline DavePEI

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2016, 05:58:39 AM »
You're gonna do all that stuff before you get your phones hooked up?  Some folks have their priorities all mixed up!   ;D
Ya, exactly what I was thinking. Remember the collector's code: Phones before life... Phones before life... Phones before life...  >:(
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Offline cloyd

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2016, 08:47:12 AM »
Thank you gentlemen!

I needed the levity this week (and next week and the next...).  It is important to keep life in perspective.  Thank you for the reminder.  :)

Tina
-- I am always doing what I cannot do yet, in order to learn how to do it. - Van Gogh -- 1885

Offline TelePlay

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2016, 12:22:46 PM »
Some time ago, I found this seller who seems to claim these are RJ-11 6P4C modular connectors take 4 wires of solid phone cables. Description is a bit cryptic and photos aren't the best. Didn't buy any but won't these fit cloyds needs? Yes, they do make solid wire RJ-45 modular connectors but this is the first that I can remember seeing solid wire RJ-11 modular connectors. Price is right.

Am I missing something here or could these be used with station wiring? Anyone have/use these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360690702964

Okay, they were cheap so I bought a bag of 50 and they arrived yesterday.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360690702964

They are identical except for the point which the wire being inserted ends. The images on the left is the "solid" wire modular plug and the one on the right is the standard or normally thought of "modular cord" connector. I took a lot of pictures under different light conditions and backgrounds and they were not easy to take so I included a few other front on shots showing the differences described below.

-------------------

Within the red boxes in the front view images and then noted with green boxes, the "solid" wire connector on the left has round slots for the solid wires inserted to hold them in place when being pierced in the crimping process.

The modular cord connector on the right has vertical bars between each wire position to separate 4 wires after the outer covering is removed and to hold them in place while being pierced in the crimping process.

-------------------

The side view on the left shows the "throat" of the "solid" wire modular plug is "square" in its height in that the height is that of the width of the slots for the solid wire, to accommodate a round, solid wire and hold it in place when crimping or piercing the wire round, solid or stranded wire.

The side view on the right shows the "throat" of the "flat or modular" wire modular plug is "rectangular" in its height in that the height is that of the thickness of a flat, modular cord, to hold the flat wire vertically firm in the plug when crimping or piercing the modular cord wire.

===========

So, yes, I answered my own question. There are two different types of modular plugs, one for solid wire or possibly for stranded wire at the end of a cloth cord and the other for modular flat cord.

But, then again, I'm sure many of you knew this but it was new to me and will be helpful when plugging wire other than flat.

On the other hand, I hope this long and wandering reply might help some who didn't.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 12:25:11 PM by TelePlay »
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unbeldi

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Re: Round vs. Flat wire?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2016, 12:58:33 PM »
The difference in these types of modular plugs for the two wire types is the shape and number of piercing prongs and the method of piercing the insulation and into the metal conductor.

In addition to those that are only designed for either solid conductors or stranded conductors,  there are types that are suitable for both types of wire.

The piercing prongs can pierce into the center of the wire, used for stranded wire, or two or three in count can be staggered so they only pierce through the insulation and cut into the sides of the wire, used for either type.  Solid wire plugs usually have fewer and longer prongs.