Author Topic: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone  (Read 3019 times)

Offline BobDelGreco

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Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« on: November 26, 2016, 06:24:04 PM »
Hi,

My name is Bob and I am new to the forums and a novice at phone collecting and repair, but I’m loving every minute of it.  I have been collecting a bit, mostly Western Electric, candlesticks and desk sets.  I love the Hotel/Apartment phones. And I love the intercom phones and payphones.

I have been working on a Western Electric Hotel/Apartment phone.  It is stamped with 653-E.   It has the added box with the Janitor/Manager/Door latch buttons.

With the help of postings in this forum, I am able to get it to ring, have a dial tone, and dial out, although the dial is not always accurate.  It has a 4H dial in it. But, when I pick up a call, the caller cannot hear my voice at all.  Still working on that.  I have the Janitor and Manager buttons hooked up to an annunciator (an old butler’s annunciator I found on eBay) that rings when the buttons are pushed.  I have the 653 hooked up to my house phone line.

Below are the wiring diagrams that I used, and they were unbelievably helpful.

I would just love to have the door latch work and have a door buzzer actually buzz the phone.   Which leads me to my actual questions.

The diagram says that the H-1 and H-2 connect to the Tip and Ring of the House Talk Pair.   What is the “House Talk Pair?”.  Is that just an intercom system? Using a local battery?  Or is that a second line?  Is there another subset?

Also below is a neat door entry button (I think).  Could this be used to buzz the phone?   If so, where can I find the proper wiring diagram to have it buzz the phone, and how it was tied into the ‘House System’?  I tried searching the forums and internet and I guess I really just don’t know what to search for.  The results are sometimes overwhelming.

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. 

Thank you!

Bob

Offline BobDelGreco

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2016, 06:31:47 PM »
I missed a photo.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2016, 07:40:31 PM »
Do you lose dial tone if the switch is in the "House" position rather than "Central"?

The transmitter is connected through that switch. The diagram shows the switch operated in the house position, which connects it through the switch contacts to H-2.

In the Central (outside line) position, it connects to L-2. You might want to temporarily move the transmitter wire inside the main phone from E to L2 to bypass the subset.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline BobDelGreco

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2016, 08:07:31 PM »
Hi,

No, I do not lose dial tone if the switch is in the "House" position.

I will try moving the transmitter wire from E to L2 and let you know.

Thank you!

Offline poplar1

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2016, 08:24:12 PM »
According to the diagram, you would lose dial tone because the transmitter and receiver would be disconnected from L2 and GN inside the phone, and the connection between R and B would also be disconnected. The transmitter and receiver would then be connected to H-1 and H-2, which are the "house talk pair", which is the intercom path for speaking with the janitor, manager, or visitor in the apartment house lobby. You would not hear dial tone from the central office while using the intercom.

Perhaps someone has rewired the 653-E as a regular 653-A. In that case, the 2-line switch on the front of the subset would serve no purpose. In fact, many of these apt. phones that have survived have just a dummy plate on the front where the 2-line switch would be.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline BobDelGreco

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2016, 08:35:17 PM »
Ah, ok, let me double check my wiring to make sure it matches the diagram.  I'll look into the 653-A as well.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2016, 08:38:11 PM »
I should add that since the switch did not remove the dial tone, then the transmitter is likely not presently connected to E.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline BobDelGreco

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2016, 11:58:42 AM »
I verified that E is connected to the transmitter.   And it looks like its wired to the switch correctly.  But the switch still does not remove the dial tone in the 'House System' setting.   I see better now when you say the transmitter and receiver is disconnected from L2 and GN inside the phone, but I can't figure out why i'm still hearing the dial tone. 

but I think  I do have something crossed because when the switch is in 'Central Office' position, the dial tone stays consistent while dialing and doesn't actually dial out, and it does dial out OK when in the 'House System' position.  I may disconnect and start fresh.

I verified that the phone itself is wired like the attached.  My wiring doesn't match the 653-A diagram I found.

Also, it seems the caller can hear me, very faintly, but they can hear.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2016, 12:34:21 PM »
The diagram attached to your latest post is for the 653-A, just redrawn without the dotted lines for the dial or the optional filter. I haven't been able to locate a diagram for the 653-E. Is there one inside your phone? Or, does anyone have a diagram for the 653-E?
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2016, 01:13:50 PM »
This diagram is actually more accurate for the 653-A. Notice that there are two black wires on BK of the dial, and two wires on the separate BK terminal.

The colorized diagram shows only one black wire on BK of the dial, and three wires on BK terminal on the terminal block.

Electrically, they are equivalent, but the following diagram is more accurate:
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/doc_details/2201-wall-telephone-hotel-sets-653sch-tl

In the attached diagram, the black transmitter wire from the "TRANS" terminal inside the front cover goes to BK on the dial, rather than to BK on the wood terminal strip.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline BobDelGreco

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2016, 01:51:25 PM »
Thank you.

So I guess that makes sense now.  I've been unknowingly using a 653-A diagram, which, from your prior post, means the 2-line switch serves no purpose, which is what appears to be happening.

The wiring diagram in the phone (attached) matches the colored diagram in my last attachment, even has the three wires on the BK terminal on the terminal block.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2016, 02:25:45 PM »
My 653-A has a P-245023 diagram, which also shows 3 wires on the BK terminal of the wood strip, and only 1 wire on BK of the dial, even though that's not how it's actually wired. But, again, electrically equivalent.

One other problem with the H-1542 wiring diagram that you are using, is that it is actually for a 553E rather than a 653E, according to the first page of the article:
http://telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/11855-h-1542-subset-for-553-apartment-phone

The instructions on the diagram say that the installer is to add the E, K, and B "p'chings" (punchings?) to the main terminal board (inside the phone), and there is no BK terminal shown on the diagram. However, the 653-type phone already has a K terminal, which is used to connect the black ringer wire to the slate condenser wire; it also has a BK terminal (but no E or B unless added).

So you would not be able to use the K in a 653 in the way indicated for a 553. You'd have to find another way of connecting the black wire from R in the subset to Green wire from the receiver circuit, because K is already in use for the ringer circuit.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2016, 03:03:46 PM »
The more I look at the diagrams, the less convinced I am that the H-1542 subset can be used with a 653A or 653E as shown in these diagrams. The 553 has only 3 wires going from the base of the phone to the cover, green, yellow and red. All three of these are "switched" in the H-1542: the green and yellow are switched from the outside line to the house talk pair, and the red wire is disconnected from R in the phone.

The 653A, on the other hand, has 5 wires from the cover to the base, going to L1, L2Y, R, GN and BK ("BLK" in the color 653 diagram). So you would have to repurpose the "central - hotel" switch not to transfer the green receiver wire and yellow transmitter wire, but rather to switch the incoming line itself. The line is shown in the top left corner of the color 653A diagram as the red and green "to line" wires going to L1 and L2Y.

Ideally, you would do this in such a way that the ringer would still be connected to the outside line, regardless of the position of the "central - hotel" switch.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2016, 03:51:00 PM »
The H1542 was certainly first intended to be used with the 553 substation set, but I am sure they must have used 653s with them too. Of course, the reason that the 653 has five wires from the cover to the base, is because in an anti-sidetone set an extra switchhook contact must be provided to remove the telephone circuit from the line completely when on hook. This is analogous to using a four-conductor cord in a 202 telephone set vs. a three-conductor cord in a 102.

But when using the receiver and transmitter of the 553 or 653 to connect to the local intercom circuits (with manager and janitor) the switch box only needs to transfer the three wires from transmitter, from receiver and the common (which was basically connected to the hook switch).  So the principle of connections between the 1542 and the 653 do not change.

The person who wrote that description in the TCI document apparently did not quite understand the functioning of the "apartment phone". The description in the first page, does not make any sense. At least not to me.
Why would there be the need for a switchboard ?   The phone is a standard local loop substation when in the "central" switch position.  When in the other position, it becomes a typical intercom, that's all.  The door latch does not provide entrance to the apartment, but opens the front door of the building.  When the apartment (or hotel room) occupant want to call the manager or janitor or service desk, they connect the receiver and transmitter elements to the house intercom circuit with the key and push the right button to signal the desired station.   When the manager calls, the buzzer sounds, and the occupant also flips the key to the local mode and picks up the call.

I haven't studied the diagrams provided, so I can't make specific recommendations for connections right now, but the principle should be to have the red "handset" wire on the R terminal of the induction coil, and the green wire from the receiver (to GN terminal), and black wire from transmitter transferred to the appropriate posts in the 1542.


unbeldi

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Re: Western Electric 653 Apartment Phone
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2016, 04:00:48 PM »
But in general, I would recommend to first make the 653 work just like a 653A on your local loop. Everything should function as expected for a normal telephone.

Then, as a second step identify the connections that are important to be broken to connect the transmitter and receiver to the house intercom circuits.  This should already be fairly obvious from the way wired are connected and routed in the set, if the combination of the parts is actually authentic.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 04:03:52 PM by unbeldi »