Author Topic: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)  (Read 17006 times)

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2017, 10:07:34 PM »
I don't know how to fully decode this but:

41 = later with High-Z ringer (I forget the ringer code)
23 = Don't know but this is the most common code and seems to correlate with black case and no highlights (the poverty pack)
E   = Black lettered dial
25 = (I think) 25 Hz ringer

I have been on about the 40 and 41 codes (as well as the 50 and 51 codes) for years but I still haven't found an official description of this or any other AE 40 or earlier code.

Regards
Jack

I am pretty much in the same state.

FYI, the set was found with a 33 1/3 Hz ringer and a dial with metropolitan plate on the Kenmore exchange in Fort Wayne, IN.
Indeed, most sets I have observed are also L series, 4123.   We don't even know what the L stands for, but I do recall having seen an N series set somewhere (or do I confuse that right now with AE 80?)....  From the features found, I am assuming a manufacturing date between 1952 and 1957, and narrowing the refurbishment date to 1955 to 1957.—too lengthy to go into that right now, but why would I attempt to create a new coding scheme to express all that, when the unknowns are so varied.

I use a compilation of some 40+ AE patents for the various features of AE sets, and to determine earliest or latest possible manufacturing date of sets from them.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 10:19:45 PM by unbeldi »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2017, 10:12:04 PM »
By "high -z", do you mean HIGH IMPEDANCE ringer?

By black lettered dial, do you mean the white porcelain metropolitan dial with red numbers and black letters?

I am sure Jack means the rural numbers only plate.
the letter z is commonly used to stand for impedance, indeed.

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2017, 10:15:32 PM »
I think the 23 cycle ringer was probably a typo, should have been 25 cycle.

I suspect the MA/MB is an attempt to apply similar coding to AE 40's as was later used on AE80's. IE: 80's started as Version N, then NA, NB, NC, ND etc. The MA/MB coding change appears to be just a part of this exercise, not anything from AE (to the best of my knowledge).

I know RotoTech has been working on this for awhile now. I always said I would crack the AE coding of bakelite sets before I die but I am starting to gave my doubts now! I think that much more comparing of real AE base codes needs to be done with the AE catalog ordering info as well as using the patent info to narrow manufacturing dates to try to get to the bottom of many of the numbering differences. The only thing that is 100% obvious is the SL versus frequency ringer coding and possibly the 40/41 change in conjunction with the change from unbiased to biased ringers that Jack mentions.

I don't see a lot if value in making up coding to sort of match AE80 coding unless one wants to use this system to catalog their own phones. While the intent of the MA/MB code might be similar to AE's 40/41 coding, I am pretty certain the two methods aren't currently interchangeable. The MA code is being used here to identify the early Bakelite case that used a metal dial bracket which is a very small percentage of the AE40 phones as compared to the large numbers of 41xx AE40 phones out there. So maybe there needs to be an MC version to identify the later change of ringer types.

I would like to start with attempting to get to the bottom of the L, N, P letters before the 40xx/41xx numbers. Does anyone gave any guesses what these might indicate? Are many P sets seen in the USA? I have wondered on occasion if the letter might indicate where it was made but haven't done any studying of this. P - Phillips Electrical Works (Canadian phone), L - Chicago Illinois, N - Northlake. Unlikely as Nortlake funny open until what....1957 or so. And I have encountered a few other letters as well.

Terry



« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 10:22:37 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2017, 10:23:56 PM »
I am sure Jack means the rural numbers only plate.

Sorry, I meant that the dial had a black finger wheel and a white number plate with numbers and letters.

M = Numbers only
E = Metro dial (numbers and letters)
C =Dial blank.

Regards
Jack
 

Offline RotoTech99

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2017, 10:33:56 PM »
If it is not too much to ask, can you e-mail the documents you got the information on coding from?

You may send it to edburnett1963@gmail.com

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2017, 10:37:18 PM »
I know we are talking about two different letters here, I am referring to the letter at the very beginning of the base code.

I have records of phones (AE40, 47, 50) with first letter(s): D, L, N, P, PL, PN, SL, SN, SZL, Z. So I think that rules out where the phone was made but it does allow it to represent features that occasionally overlap.

Terry

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2017, 10:42:55 PM »
Sorry, I meant that the dial had a black finger wheel and a white number plate with numbers and letters.

M = Numbers only
E = Metro dial (numbers and letters)
C =Dial blank.

Regards
Jack

There was also a dial that had Operator in addition on the zero position.
I seem to also have seen numbers-only dials with 'A' (rather than M) in the coding, but it has not been uniquely identifiable that the letter actually refers to the dial.

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2017, 10:48:11 PM »
I know we are talking about two different letters here, I am referring to the letter at the very beginning of the base code.

I have records of phones (AE40, 47, 50) with first letter(s): D, L, N, P, PL, PN, SL, SN, SZL, Z. So I think that rules out where the phone was made but it does allow it to represent features that occasionally overlap.

Terry

I had the idea once that the series number at the beginning indicated the sales region for which the sets were destined.
I think I had compared several sets that seemed to have been found in the South Pacific, New Zealand or AUS, or so, with different starting letters, but I have not tried to verify against other regions.  Perhaps Jack knows what is prevalent there.

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2017, 11:10:08 PM »
There was also a dial that had Operator in addition on the zero position.
I seem to also have seen numbers-only dials with 'A' (rather than M) in the coding, but it has not been uniquely identifiable that the letter actually refers to the dial.

The "41" code is shared with the AE 47 for which there is a limited amount of information in TA-57.

Jack
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 11:25:45 PM by Jack Ryan »

Offline RotoTech99

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2017, 11:17:07 PM »
The catalog I have is #TA-57; Can you send me a copy of the TA-47 catalog, please?

The dial coding Jack mentioned comes from the AE47 section of my TA-57 catalog.

Thank you, Rototech99

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2017, 11:22:12 PM »
I had the idea once that the series number at the beginning indicated the sales region for which the sets were destined.
I think I had compared several sets that seemed to have been found in the South Pacific, New Zealand or AUS, or so, with different starting letters, but I have not tried to verify against other regions.  Perhaps Jack knows what is prevalent there.

Very few AE 40s were used in Australia and most of those that were were used by the military and had felt bottoms. I think I have posted the code on those before but I'm "at work" at the moment and I forget the details.

There other coding schemes (Type 18 & 22) used on AE 40

Regards
Jack

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2017, 11:24:44 PM »
The catalog I have is #TA-57; Can you send me a copy of the TA-47 catalog, please?

The dial coding Jack mentioned comes from the AE47 section of my TA-57 catalog.

Thank you, Rototech99

Sorry, 57 - a typo

Jack

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2017, 12:33:27 AM »
There was also a dial that had Operator in addition on the zero position.
I seem to also have seen numbers-only dials with 'A' (rather than M) in the coding, but it has not been uniquely identifiable that the letter actually refers to the dial.


On AE 80/90 series phones AE used A for numbers only dials, B for Blank and C for Metropolitan (numbers/letters) dials.

Terry

Offline RotoTech99

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2017, 09:59:49 AM »
Dear Unbeldi

Do you have anything that would better explain the ringer impedances for the AE40 ringers? A table of impedance lists and codes, possibly?

The most I recall is the large coil ringers were considered low impedance, and the D-56515 types as high impedance.

You've got my curiosity raised on this, so I'm curious to see what you have on this.

BTW: Getting a lot of good feedback on the topic overall, I'm glad to see it.

~RotoTech99

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2017, 04:42:15 PM »
Dear Unbeldi

Do you have anything that would better explain the ringer impedances for the AE40 ringers? A table of impedance lists and codes, possibly?

The most I recall is the large coil ringers were considered low impedance, and the D-56515 types as high impedance.

You've got my curiosity raised on this, so I'm curious to see what you have on this.

BTW: Getting a lot of good feedback on the topic overall, I'm glad to see it.

~RotoTech99

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11938.0
Here is a topic with tables for ringer codes for various manufacturers, but AE did not use a consistent nomenclature or sets of designations for the frequency-selective ringers throughout their history, like most of the others did.  So the table presented there does not list them explicitly for AE.  The AE catalogs use part numbers for each of the frequencies available, part numbers even individually for each ringer coil. But the lists in various catalogs are detailed.  AEs frequency systems, i.e. the frequency groups and values, are the same though as any other manufacturers.

I don't recall right now whether AE actually details the specific impedances of each type of ringer, other than classifying them as low impedance and high impedance.  This is a general line of classification in all of telephony history.  In general, a low impedance ringer had a DC resistivity of ca. 2500 Ω or less. Anything above that would be high.

For high-impedance ringers it was possibly to reduce the size of the ringing capacitors by about a factor of 2 and utilize the available ringing power more efficiently. Some manufactures varied the impedance of the ringers by frequency (e.g. Leich, IIRC).

For proper operation of frequency ringers several parameters must be controlled. Usually only the frequency and the capacitor size are listed in company catalogs. But it is also important to use the proper ringing voltage for each frequency.  In general the higher the frequency, the more voltage was used to ring them, because the effective impedance is a strong function of frequency and in order to provide enough power to the ringer they had to raise the voltage with frequency.   In historical perspective. some early ringing systems used voltages of up to 200 V.  Even today, the FCC still lists ringing voltages for 66 Hz ringers of 68 to 150 V—that doesn't mean they are still used, though.