Author Topic: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)  (Read 22144 times)

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #255 on: January 11, 2017, 03:07:31 PM »
Took a look through the third code section for 40/43/47/50 sets. Nothing longer than 3 digits and virtually nothing other than two letters/1 digit. One oddity there, all in the SN402x sets are three that are like they are stamped backwards. 4BO, 4BG, 4RS. Might be just that, someone set the stamp up in reverse.

Back to the single digit, another oddity...out of approx 50 examples, only 4 digits show up. 1, 6, 7 & 9. And of the sets that have the P at the very beginning (Canadian sets), a small sample of only 4 at the moment but...no digit in the third position of the third code. Just the two letters. If this digit were a plant indicator it would be redundant with the P for Phillips at the very beginning unless Phillips opened a second plant. Keep in mind these records were all of 40 series sets not 80 series sets.

Back to the 10-58-6 type codes primarily found on 80/90 set types but seen on a couple of late 40 series phones.
Unfortunately in most cases in my records I translated these numbers to a date rather than entering the exact code sequence found on the phone.
The first segment is always very evenly distributed between numbers 1-12 only.
The second segment ranges from about 57 through high 70 something numbers in all cases.
The third segment for 40/50 type sets is reported just above. For 80/90 type sets it remains almost always in the single digit range though appears to have more than the 1, 6, 7 & 9 options mentioned above for 40 type sets. There are a small quantity of numbers that are two digits long though, particularly in newer AE products such as 80E telephones. I have a couple of 28's and they actually have P-28 like Plant 28, a 31, a 54 and a couple of 61's. Since I always made the assumption that the third field in the date code was a plant code I wasn't surprised to see some of the newer AE sets with two digits numbers there. Plants such as Huntsville Alabama and Letherbridge Alberta began making these newer consumer level AE sets. I will have to look further into this as my records are so incomplete.

So the bottom line with the date code field particularly on AE 80's is, the first two positions nicely work for a month and then year. The third position frequently works for a day but there are way too many months that don't have more than 9 days in them,. If the day were the first field rather than the third field same thing, never goes above 12.

Terry


Do you have enough data to limit the digit in the third grouping,  e.g., 12 in UD-12 ?

Frankly, I believe that 12 is largest number I have seen in that position. Perhaps that is only hind-sight and subjective.  But I have been cautious about the correct interpretation of the explicit date codes on Northlake sets, whether Type 40 or 80 Monophones.    Where does the thought come from that the third number is not part of the date?

In the sets that I have seen, the format could easily be  code-year-month or month-year-code.

For example, my 10-58-11 set, could easily  be October 1958, or November 1958.

On AE 80 sets, I have seen dates formatted as such:   5 70 21,  in which case this clearly appears as complete date:  Month Year Day, or does it mean dayofweek Year week ?
PS: should set this aside, I think, probably not related to the interpretation of code so much earlier.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 03:11:10 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #256 on: January 11, 2017, 03:33:47 PM »
I am looking closely at a fairly EARLY Forget-Me-Not Blue 80 set:
Codes on the base are NB 82230 CSA EG5. All of this code except for the final EG5 part is standard for an AE 80 set and can be deciphered on Paul F's AE colors chart. But rather than a date such as 8-61-X it has the EG5 code.

Now inside the phone:
Transmitter capsule looks much newer than the phone and the only marking is a D#
Receiver capsule looks original to phone and has code AG.
Dial has code EG7 stamped on it
Potted network has D# and EG8
Condenser on ringer frame has EG
Ringer sticker has all usual info and its D# plus a second D# D-530139-AG. I am assuming this is a D number for the sticker but it ends in AG.

To sumarize, inside this phone with EG5 stamped on the base in various places can be found:
AG
EG7
EG8
EG
AG

This topic NEEDS MORE PICTURES!!!

Terry

« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 03:44:44 PM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #257 on: January 11, 2017, 06:48:54 PM »
Here is a currently offered AE40,   N 4069 B0  UT7.

It seems pretty original, probably ca. 1940, although the patent sticker is pretty much invisible.
Cloth cords, but damaged.

Both, transmitter and receiver, are also marked "UT".

The number card indicates that the number card is also original, having been installed on a manual line.  No dial is indicated by B0, as was standard in the 1930.
This might even be a local battery set, as the set type (4069) is only one count off from the set that Rototech reported as being LB (4068).  If it were simply a manual common battery set, then a standard set would be sufficient with a dial blank.



« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 08:49:38 PM by unbeldi »

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #258 on: January 11, 2017, 07:25:51 PM »
Took a look through the third code section for 40/43/47/50 sets. Nothing longer than 3 digits and virtually nothing other than two letters/1 digit. One oddity there, all in the SN402x sets are three that are like they are stamped backwards. 4BO, 4BG, 4RS. Might be just that, someone set the stamp up in reverse.

The format (digit followed by two letters) was common on AE 35 and AE 43. I have occasionally come across AE 40s coded (letter followed by two digits)

Jack

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #259 on: January 11, 2017, 08:15:22 PM »
First Picture:
So what is this round gray thing in my AE47? Looking at the schematic I think it is labelled as a Click Suppressor. Looks to be diodes connected across the receiver element. I need to see if they are in all AE47 sets because this one looks to be clearly dated. It has 3B and (12-55) stamped on it.

Second Picture:
AE47 Schematic Diagram

Third Picture:
Close up of dial wiring on Schematic (sorry, kind of blurry).
What is that at lower right side of dial? A resistor and capacitor in series across pulse contacts. The note says "Part if Dial"
Spark suppression? RFI suppressor like Jack mentioned that he thought came with all 47's?

An interesting note on the bottom of the schematic. One more for our record:
"Monophones L4111 wired per Method A" (line 3 switch up by hookswitch)
"Monophones L4114 wired per Method B" (line 3 switch up by hookswitch)

Terry
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 08:17:49 PM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #260 on: January 11, 2017, 08:37:14 PM »
First Picture:
So what is this round gray thing in my AE47? Looking at the schematic I think it is labelled as a Click Suppressor. Looks to be diodes connected across the receiver element. I need to see if they are in all AE47 sets because this one looks to be clearly dated. It has 3B and (12-55) stamped on it.

That is a varistor.   Physically it is constructed from a stack of rectifiers, one tap is in the center, and the second is looped from one end of the stack to the other. It is present in all 47s, as far as I have seen.


Quote
Second Picture:
AE47 Schematic Diagram

Third Picture:
Close up of dial wiring on Schematic (sorry, kind of blurry).
What is that at lower right side of dial? A resistor and capacitor in series across pulse contacts. The note says "Part if Dial"
Spark suppression? RFI suppressor like Jack mentioned that he thought came with all 47's?


The capacitor and resistor across the DP contacts is the spark/RFI suppressor that we mentioned earlier.  In the standard Type 40, there is a resistor mounted by the switch hook that functions in conjunction with the ringing capacitor.

Quote
An interesting note on the bottom of the schematic. One more for our record:
"Monophones L4111 wired per Method A" (line 3 switch up by hookswitch)
"Monophones L4114 wired per Method B" (line 3 switch up by hookswitch)

Noted and recorded in my type compilations...



« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 08:47:57 PM by unbeldi »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #261 on: January 13, 2017, 10:35:55 AM »
Took a look through the third code section for 40/43/47/50 sets. Nothing longer than 3 digits and virtually nothing other than two letters/1 digit. One oddity there, all in the SN402x sets are three that are like they are stamped backwards. 4BO, 4BG, 4RS. Might be just that, someone set the stamp up in reverse.

Back to the single digit, another oddity...out of approx 50 examples, only 4 digits show up. 1, 6, 7 & 9. And of the sets that have the P at the very beginning (Canadian sets), a small sample of only 4 at the moment but...no digit in the third position of the third code. Just the two letters. If this digit were a plant indicator it would be redundant with the P for Phillips at the very beginning unless Phillips opened a second plant. Keep in mind these records were all of 40 series sets not 80 series sets.

I think, in particular, I have always been struck by the relatively frequent occurrence of the 7 in the last position of this code group.  I have not recorded them all, but in my memory, the 7 makes an imprint more than any other number.  I know this must be subjective, and no substitute for actually recording data.Has anyone noticed that when you bought a new car which you thought was so unique and rare in color or features, that all of a sudden you see the same every where?   ;D

Quote
Back to the 10-58-6 type codes primarily found on 80/90 set types but seen on a couple of late 40 series phones.
Unfortunately in most cases in my records I translated these numbers to a date rather than entering the exact code sequence found on the phone.
The first segment is always very evenly distributed between numbers 1-12 only.
The second segment ranges from about 57 through high 70 something numbers in all cases.
I agree that these dates seem to have started with the move to Northlake in 1957.  Shortly before this transition, AE started using patent labels without patent numbers listed. They are in essence just trademark labels for the name "Monophone". They have a new form number, D-780575-A, and come in two varieties, one with the Chicago 7 location and with the Northlake location.


Quote
The third segment for 40/50 type sets is reported just above. For 80/90 type sets it remains almost always in the single digit range though appears to have more than the 1, 6, 7 & 9 options mentioned above for 40 type sets. There are a small quantity of numbers that are two digits long though, particularly in newer AE products such as 80E telephones. I have a couple of 28's and they actually have P-28 like Plant 28, a 31, a 54 and a couple of 61's. Since I always made the assumption that the third field in the date code was a plant code I wasn't surprised to see some of the newer AE sets with two digits numbers there. Plants such as Huntsville Alabama and Letherbridge Alberta began making these newer consumer level AE sets. I will have to look further into this as my records are so incomplete.

So the bottom line with the date code field particularly on AE 80's is, the first two positions nicely work for a month and then year. The third position frequently works for a day but there are way too many months that don't have more than 9 days in them,. If the day were the first field rather than the third field same thing, never goes above 12.
Thanks for the explanation.  I guess we need to continue this kind of analysis of the frequency of symbol distribution.



unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #262 on: January 13, 2017, 10:57:20 AM »
Do we have a definitive date or year for the discontinuation of Type 50 wall phones ?
I have been assuming it was just after 1955.  I think the Type 80 desk phone was already available in 1955, and the 90 came out shortly after.
The AE documentary  "This is Automatic Electric" of 1955 shows the Type 40, 50, and 80, but not yet the Type 90.  Type 90 is present in the 1957 catalogs. So this introduction must have happened sometime between 1955 and 1957.

1955 was the year that AE was acquired by General Telephone.  No doubt this brought some cash infusion to update manufacturing and product lines.
Was the acquisition a reason for changing the labeling of products from the L ordering prefix to the N prefix ?
We need to observe more Nset and record the patent label form numbers on them.  Terry noted that no Type 50 wall phones are found with N prefixes, only L.  Was the 50 discontinued with the acquisition, and therefore could not receive N numbers ?

Many open questions...

PS:  But we do know that some L-41xx sets were still made even in Northlake:
 L 4123 ASL 10-58-11
 L 4111 GSL 1-59-6
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 12:17:10 PM by unbeldi »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #263 on: January 13, 2017, 01:15:43 PM »
1955 is the year I have generally heard as the launch if the first AE80. I think I may have once heard something about very late 1954 so likely 1955 before one made it far from the shipping dock. I always heard that the 90 came after the 80 had been launched, possibly even 1-2 years later. But I've heard the same thing about the 50 as compared to the 40.

The idea of the desk phone being launched first then work getting under way on the wall phone version makes sense to me as wall phones were much more prevalent then but the "modern phone" was a desk phone. Telco's we're going to have stock piles of usable wall phones being removed as desk phones were being installed in their place so they wouldn't have been as anxious to have access to new wall phones as they were for desk phones. One final note about the first AE90...turn it over and you are looking at an AE80 with a cradle/hook added on the side and modified cover to make it a wall phone.

So a 1956-1957 introduction for the 90 would sound about right and it would seem hard to believe that the 50 would be discontinued prior to the 90 being available. But the move to Northlake mid 1957 could certainly have been the end of the 50.

The end of the 40 as well though AE seemed to like to overlap production of new and old sets for Telcos that were convinced that the 40/50's were the way of the future. And there are stories of type 40 military sets being available later as well. With lots of room at the new Northlake facility maybe they moved enough of the production line to be able to produce them a little longer if needed.

Let's not forget that Leich began producing AE80's initially as well since Leich was owned by GTE prior to GTE acquiring AE. I don't recall ever seeing a Leich 90 though. Leich was quite quickly amalgamated into AE after the aquisition.

The AE 47 set that I reported on here a couple of days ago, (with the dated 12-55 varistor in it) has the smaller gold decal without any patent dates on it. Now I have put two and two together with you mentioning the removal of patent dates from the stickers.

The replacement for the (L4111) 47 set (the 87) would logically have been a couple more years after the move to Northlake so more reason to keep the line that could manufacture 47's awhile longer.

Terry
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 07:44:17 PM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #264 on: January 13, 2017, 05:20:31 PM »


The AE 47 set that I reported on here a couple of days ago, (with the dated 12-55 varistor in it) has the smaller gold decal without any patent dares on it. Now I have put two and two together with you mentioning the removal of patent dates from the stickers.
Does it have a form number ?

Quote
The replacement for the (L4111) 47 set (the 87) would logically have been a couple more years after the move to Northlake so more reason to keep the line that could manufacture 47's awhile longer.
I agree, the latest I have recorded was from 1959.

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #265 on: January 14, 2017, 12:14:04 AM »
Is the form number the D# on the lower left corner of the label?

Not too much left of the label but the number is D-780508-A6

Will try to get a clearer picture of it.

I am surprised at the number of 40 and 50 sets in my records that have fabric insulated wiring as opposed to plastic wiring. A bit of a pattern here, there are NO 40xx or 50xx sets with plastic insulated wiring. 41xx and 51xx sets could have either type of insulation, exactly 50-50, 8 fabric and 8 plastic.

Terry
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 01:01:17 AM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #266 on: January 14, 2017, 07:16:19 PM »
Is the form number the D# on the lower left corner of the label?

Not too much left of the label but the number is D-780508-A6
It is the same label number that I posted in the other thread that was taken from an AE 80, just a differing issue number  (A9).


Quote
Will try to get a clearer picture of it.

I am surprised at the number of 40 and 50 sets in my records that have fabric insulated wiring as opposed to plastic wiring. A bit of a pattern here, there are NO 40xx or 50xx sets with plastic insulated wiring. 41xx and 51xx sets could have either type of insulation, exactly 50-50, 8 fabric and 8 plastic.

Terry

I suppose most sets with low-impedance ringers were made before the switch to plastic insulated wiring, which was probably early 50 or so.

Offline rdelius

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #267 on: January 14, 2017, 07:22:38 PM »
i think plastic wires came along with the introduction of the type 47about 1949or so

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #268 on: January 15, 2017, 01:19:17 AM »
Cloth Versus Plastic Insulated Internal Wiring

Based on what I am finding in 13 different AE47 sets (was 10 but I had 3 here that I hadn't recorded) it looks as though the change from cloth insulated wire to plastic insulated wire inside of 47 sets was January 1956. Some of the 47's that I have records for were made in Brockville Canada and Some in Chicago USA but I wouldn't expect to find a big discrepancy in the time frame of the insulation change between these two manufacturing locations.

Every 47 that I have here has the gray click suppressor with a date (month-year) on it between 1955 and 1958. This is what I am dating the 47's with and noting when the wire insulation changed. I only have this date recorded for the five 47's that I have here though. Need more samples!

Logically the wiring in 40's, 50's, 47's etc would have all changed to plastic insulation at pretty much the same time I would think. If so this will be a way to pin down the date of this change which will be another "made before/after" identifier for AE40's and 50's.

My 5 "dated" AE 47's:

Made in USA 7-1955 cloth internal wiring
Made in USA 12-1955 cloth internal wiring
Made in Canada 1-1956 Plastic internal wiring
Made in Canada 1-1958 Plastic internal wiring
Made in Canada 1-1958 Plastic internal wiring

We need some more samples though just in case the new AE plant in Canada which opened in 1954 used the new plastic insulated wire while sets made in the USA didn't switch to plastic insulated wire until the new plant opened in Northlake in August 1957.

Stub....need you to open up your 47 one more time! Get the date off the varistor.

Anyone else out there with an AE 47 handy?

Terry

« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 01:14:11 AM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #269 on: January 15, 2017, 12:35:33 PM »
Is it not correct that the Phillips works in Brockville produced primarily wire and cables?  If so, it might be logical that they would be leading in the use of plastic covered wire, in case we find a difference.

At least one colored AE40, with the code 4044, IIRC, that I have pics of, has cloth-covered wiring, and I estimated that the set was made after 1952.
That was in part why I suggested a transition in early 1950s, it is entirely possible that it was even later.