Author Topic: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)  (Read 17008 times)

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #270 on: January 15, 2017, 01:56:37 PM »
Yes, Phillips made wire and cable in Brockville, presumably in the same building(s) that the other AE equipment was made, Dave_PEI would know. When the new AE Canada plant opened in 1954 Phillips carried on making wire and cable (presumably) at the old Phillips Electrical Works plant at Brockville Ontario. Eventually there were other Phillips Cables plants in Canada, we had one in Vancouver unless maybe it was just a warehouse facility. Most of the cable that BC Tel used was made by Phillips Cables until they eventually closed the Vancouver plant (maybe Phillips closed down everywhere at that time) in the 1990's.

Terry

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #271 on: January 15, 2017, 02:34:45 PM »
Low Impedance vs High Impedance Ringers and 40xx/50xx vs 41xx/51xx in the First Code Field

I have gone through my Excel records of AE base Codes for 40's, 47's and 50's with regards to looking at ringer types (old larger low impedance ringers versus newer smaller high impedance ringers) used in the 40xx versus 41xx and same for 50 sets. My sample size is 39 telephones, I have many more recorded but couldn't use records from any that weren't clearly identifiable as 40xx versus 41xx coding or where the ringer in the phone wasn't identified to me in surveys.

40xx sets had 14 Low Impedance Ringers and 0 High Impedance Ringers installed.
41xx sets had 0 Low Impedance Ringers and 5 High Impedance ringers installed.
4111 (47) sets had 0 Low Impedance ringers and 2 High Impedance Ringers installed.
50xx sets had 10 Low Impedance Ringers and 0 High Impedance Ringers installed.
51xx sets had 2 Low Impedance Ringers and 6 High Impedance ringers installed.

Notes:
Most of my records of AE 47 (4111) sets had Z rather than L or N coding and the other numbers don't directly identify them as 40xx versus 41xx sets so only the L/N coded sets were included here.
-Two 51xx AE50 sets DO HAVE low impedance ringers in them but they are both SL ringers in sets coded as originally having frequency ringers so these ringers have been swapped out later and the low impedance ringers must have been all that was on hand.

So, I say that we make the call in favor of Jack Ryan who made this call quite some time ago. The change from Low Impedance Ringers to High Impedance ringers appears to have also incremented the Base Coding from the 40xx to 41xx and 50xx to 51xx.

Terry
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 01:09:55 AM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #272 on: January 15, 2017, 02:48:21 PM »
So, I say that we make the call in favor of Jack Ryan who made this call quite some time ago. The change from Low Impedance Ringers to High Impedance ringers appears to have also incremented the Base Coding from the 40xx to 41xx and 50xx to 51xx.

Terry

So seconded!

I think it is especially significant that clearly later manufactured sets in the mid 1950s that are coded 40xx have been found with low impedance ringers of clearly newer manufacturing materials than those in the 1940s.  The only reason I can think of for using low-resistance ringers anymore at that time is for new stations on party lines with existing low-z ringers, to preserve line balance.

Offline stub

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #273 on: January 15, 2017, 02:59:36 PM »
Terry,
         My 47's varistor has 3B ( 12-53 ) on it,   stub
Kenneth Stubblefield        
  CRPF
   TCI

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #274 on: January 15, 2017, 03:49:48 PM »
Terry,
         My 47's varistor has 3B ( 12-53 ) on it,   stub

Thanks Ken. That is the oldest "DATED" 47 I have in my records so far. I have the date from the varistor for 6 or 13 recorded AE47 sets. This expands that date range from 12-1953 through 2-1958.

Stubs 47 is a L4111 ASL RU6 set with a "D-750504-A46 Chicago 7" gold decal on the base and internal cloth insulated wiring.

Terry

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #275 on: January 16, 2017, 11:37:23 AM »
I have added two items to the "Highlites of AE Code Deciphering and Dating Discussions" topic. This is done when we figure that this particular coding has been properly deciphered.

- Low Impedance and High Impedance Ringers and 40xx/50xx Versus 41xx/51xx Base Codes

- Colored AE 40, 47 & 50 Sets

Topic located here:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17454.0

Let me know here in this topic if anything doesn't seem correct or if there is any disagreement with anything whatsoever.

Terry
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 12:43:32 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #276 on: January 16, 2017, 12:38:56 PM »
A summary to date of the letter(s) at the beginning of the First Code Field:

-L & N are by far the most often seen letters on AE40's, with L being see slightly more frequently than N in my records at least. So far we have no idea what the difference is between the L and N sets.

-AE50's are predominantly L sets. NO N sets have been seen what so ever.

-When there is more than one letter at the beginning of the First Code Segment, the extra digit is usually a P or an S and it is always to the left of a L or N.

-If the first letter of a two letter sequence is a P, the phone is almost certainly made in Canada. Maybe it stood for "Phillips" originally but it carried on once AE sets began being made by AE Canada from 1954 on.

-If the first letter of a two letter sequence is an S, the phone is made in USA with Chicago Ill, or Chicago 7 Ill on the tag just like single letter N and L sets. So far we have no idea what the extra S indicates on these phones.

-There are other letters as well, mainly letters near the end of the alphabet, X,  Y & Z. Several of my AE47's begin with Z yet many other 47's are L4111 sets. Low numbers of X, Y & Z sets have been seen and they don't have any obvious differences from phones with "normal" codes though they haven't been closely inspected.

I have records of phones with first letter(s): D, L, N, P, PL, PN, SL, SN, SZL, Z.

Jack Ryan added GN and TN to the list. I don't think I have any records of those codes on phones found in North America.

As for the 4 digits that follow the initial Letter(s) in the First Code Field, they appear to be assigned to various changes to options and electrical characteristics of the phones over the years and likely for certain purposes. This will take some time to begin to understand the differences.

Terry
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 12:54:34 AM by AE_Collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #277 on: January 16, 2017, 01:33:15 PM »
Third Code Field - Typically LLN (Letter Letter Number)

A few code examples:
L4123  B20  YK7
L4125  D33F  RU7
N4025 A5  TB1
PL5100  D30  AN

The Third Code Field usually begins with two letters and then a number. Comparisons have been made to the last code segments on AE80/90 phones where the date appears to be indicated by two sets of numbers and then a third number that doesn't really work as a part of a date.

For example 12-63-8. This could be Dec 8, 1963 or August 12, 1963 but neither are normal date formats. No digits in the first position ever exceed 12 with 1 through 12 all showing up relatively evenly. It is rare for the digit in the third position to exceed 9 though it does happen. So, this third position isn't considered to be a part of the date but more likely a plant code or indicator of some other feature.

So on AE40/50 phones I have considered that the two letters may somehow indicate a date in some convoluted fashion. These two letters and sometimes the third digit will quite often show up stamped on various components throughout 40's and 50's. Frequently they don't all match likely due to parts being moved around but quite often they do all match or at least look quite similar. The two letters almost always show up on transmitter and receiver capsules and condensers inside the phone and sometimes on the back of dials as well.

The third digit in the Third Code Field is virtually always a single number. By far the number 7 seems the most prominent on 40's and 50's.

Out of 54 AE40 phones with valid codes on the base, this is what I found. Numbers not shown didn't turn up on a single phone in my records:

#0 = 1 phone
#1 = 6 phones
#6 = 4 phones
#7 = 19 phones
#9 = 8 phones

Out of 11 AE50 phones with valid codes on the back, this is what I found. Numbers not shown didn't turn up on a single phone in my records:

#4 = 1 phone
#5 = 1 phone
#6 = 3 phones
#8 = 5 phones
#9 = 1 phone

So to summarize: It seems to me that these two letters in the Third Code Field could represent a manufacture date somehow and the digit could represent where it was made or where parts were assembled. This will take a lot more studying but that's my guess so far.

NOTES:

-A couple of 40 or 47 sets have been seen with the 80/90 type date/plant code stamped on the base rather than letters/number like most 40's have. These seem to be late models made at the new Northlake Illinois plant that opened in 1958.

-40/50 sets with a P before the initial L or N in the first code sequence (phones most likely made in Canada) never seem to have the number (or letter) in the third position of the Third Code Field. It is just blank. If this is a plant code it would be redundant on sets with the P as the P identifies the place of manufacture as long as there was only one plant in Canada.

Terry
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 01:01:16 AM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #278 on: January 16, 2017, 01:57:45 PM »
For example 12-63-8. This could be Dec 8, 1963 or August 12, 1963 but neither are normal date formats. No digits in the first position ever exceed 12 with 1 through 12 all showing up relatively evenly. It is rare for the digit in the third position to exceed 9 though it does happen. So, this third position isn't considered to be a part of the date but more likely a plant code or indicator of some other feature.

Western Electric often also did not use "normal" date formats. I would not let that stand in the way of interpretation.
What may seem normal in a local manufacturing context is hard to conceive later.  It may need historical context; for example, if a company has historically coded only month and year, say as 10-35, and decided to add days, it may not want to cause confusion by changing the established sequences, and simply add it at the end.  This is not a proposal, just an example of historical development.

The decoding also need to take consideration of the fact that the same letter sequence was applied to the TX and RX elements in the handset, on the dial, even the capacitor.   When they differ, it is easy to spot that a transmitter, for example, was changed at some time.

On dials, I have seen up to -12 after the two letters.   Transducers apparently never have a digit appended.

For 40s I have occurrences of at least the following:  0, 1, 3, 6, 7, 9, 11
For 50:  4, 5, 9
For 43:  6   ( I have more, but not collected as list)

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #279 on: January 25, 2017, 12:43:55 AM »
Second Code Field

We haven't discussed the Second Code Field yet with the exception of colored sets where the Second Code Field frequently has an extra fourth character, a letter indicating the color as previously discussed in this topic.

The Second Code Field has a couple of variations but it is certainly the easiest Field to Decode.

Dial Code - First Letter of the Second Code Field:

The first character is always a letter A, B, D & E show up the most. While this letter code doesn't align with the letter used in instructions for ordering phones in the sales catalogs it seems fairly obvious that the following is the Base Codes / Dial type pattern:
A = All Numbers Dial Black Numbers on White background
B = Dial Blank / Manual Phone
D = "Metropolitan Red Numbers & Black Letters Dial
E = "Metropolitan Red Numbers & Black Letters Dial

Since dials seem to have moved around quite a bit as well as "B" manual phones being upgraded to Dial sets, it is difficult to figure what the original difference between D & E was and why there seem to be no "C" sets.

I also have one record of an H Dial and one record of an L Dial but there is no obvious explanation looking at the dials currently in these phones. The L Dial phone happened to be a Numbers Only Dial like code A Dial and the H Dial phone was a conventional Numbers/Letters Dial like code D and E Dials.

I do have numerous K Dials in my records and coincidentally they all appear on phones made in Canada. I have 6 AE50 sets with K codes and all six are PL5000 phones. Three have Metropolitan Dials including the Z and three have Metropolitan Dials without the Z. I also have two AE40 phones with K code Dials. Both are PN4023 phones and both dials are Metropolitan Dials including the Z.

This brings up the Z or No Z on the Zero Hole. Does anyone have any thoughts about Z versus No Z? What did WECo have in the 1940's and 1950's? I don't know if one version is older than the other version? Were Z's added on new dials when they began using ZEnith Numbers? I remember Zenith Numbers and presume they were a way to offer Toll Free Calls before 800 Numbers?

Ringer Codes - Second and possibly Third Character in the Second Code Field:

There was a change to the ringer Code at some point in time. It looks as though initially a single number was used to indicate the ringer type. A 0 was used to indicate a Straight Line Ringer and other single digits indicated various frequency ringer types. At some point in time a couple of additional ringer frequencies were introduced which likely led to the change from a single digit to a two digit ringer code where they simply put the Frequency as a two digit entry. Since they had two places now they now used the letters SL to indicate a Straight Line Ringer rather than using a 0 or 00.

For the most part phones in the 40xx/50xx ranges used the single digit ringer codes while phones in the 41xx/51xx ranges used the two digit ringer codes. But I have 5 records, all of 4044 and 4045 phones that have the two digit ringer codes. Unfortunately I only have the actual ringer type recorded for one of these 5 phones and it has an older Low Impedance type ringer fitting in with the convention of 40xx phones having Low Impedance Ringers and 41xx phones having High Impedance Ringers.

First Format for Ringer Codes:
NOTE:
This is a guess based on listings in catalogs)

0 = Straight Line Ringer
1 = 16.6 Hz
2 = 25 Hz
3 = 33.3 Hz
4 = 50 Hz
5 = 66.6 Hz
6 = 20 Hz
7 = 30 Hz
8 = 42 Hz
9 = 54 Hz


Second Format for Ringer Codes:
SL = Straight Line Ringer
xx - Frequency Ringer of xx Frequency.
Examples: 20, 25, 30, 33, 42, 50, 54, 60, 66

Thought and Comments?

Terry


« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 01:23:04 AM by AE_Collector »

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #280 on: January 25, 2017, 12:52:23 AM »
Second Format for Ringer Codes:
SL = Straight Line Ringer
xx - Frequency Ringer of xx Frequency.
Examples: 20, 25, 30, 33 1/3, 42, 50, 54, 60, 66 2/3,

I believe 33-1/3 and 66-2/3 are listed as 33 and 66 respectively.

Jack

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #281 on: January 25, 2017, 01:04:16 AM »
Yes, you are correct with respect to the code on the base. I will correct that in my previous post.

Terry

Offline RotoTech99

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #282 on: January 26, 2017, 11:53:57 AM »
Dear Forum:

I've went back and weeded out a couple possibilities for the Mahogany color code from similar topics here on CRPF...

From a 2011 CRPF post I found a mahogany AE40 with the code L4124 ASLA YG9... From Topic 1; 1941 Mahogany Monophone
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.0

and from Topic AE40 in Mahogany, Walnut, or Just Plain Black an AE40 with code L4125 ASLB BN6

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4394.0

Would either of these  be the code we've been looking for Mahogany, possibly?

"inquiring minds want to know"... What do you think on these?

RotoTech99
<edit> I added the links to these two topics.  AE_Collector
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 01:22:38 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #283 on: January 26, 2017, 12:50:37 PM »
Good detective work RotoTech! With no examples recorded to date the evidence seemed to be pointing at A, B & C being for Mahogany, Walnut & Black (in no particular order). Obviously Black would have been the first colour that Bakelite phones were produced in for the public. While I am not certain, I think that Walnut and Mahogany came first before the other colors. Thus there would have been no need for a color code until Walnut and Mahogany became options.

They then would have logically (in my mind) decided that black was color A and used B & C for Walnut and Mahogany. But they certainly could have assigned A & B for the two new colors considering Black to NOT be a color and not giving it a code initially. Of course NO black phones have been seen (by me) with a color code on them at all, it remained forever a non coded color on the base of the black phones.

They then might have decided that Black SHOULD have a color code once they were introducing all the new bright plastic colors. So Black could easily have become C rather than A. Something convoluted like that would seem very AE to me! I encountered something else during this project that made me wonder if in fact Black would technically be color C not color A. Now to remember what that was.

That is a good start at identifying the code for Mahogany and Walnut phones. It shouldn't be much longer before we get a few more examples to confirm your findings.

Something we will have to be carefull with when dealing with the Mahogany and Walnut colors is determining for certain what color the phone actually is that we are looking at. They are so similar. I am pretty sure that the one with more distinct color differences (lighter and darker Browns is Mahogany and Walnut is more black and dark brown colors.


<edit> I found and added the two links into Rototechs post. One is likely Mahogany and the other Walnut based on the row different color codes. BUT, I can't make the call from the pictures. Stickdales said his was Mahogany but that appears to be what he heard the name was for dark brown, likely jot realizing that there were two different dark brown versions.

"A" Color Coded 40: (My guess = Mahogany)
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.0
The first one was Stockdales Find of the Month AND Find of the YEAR:
It has lots of good pictures. I can add it into my Excel records.

"B" Color Coded 40: (My guess = Walnut)
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=4394.0
I even started this topic! There are no pictures inside this one unfortunately. The eBay link is still alive but pictures there are gone.

Terry
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 05:34:09 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline RotoTech99

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #284 on: January 30, 2017, 01:02:36 PM »
Dear AE Collector:

I was comparing the walnut AE 40 phones to the photos we were discussing to my color page of the AE40's, and they look closer to the walnut one pictured there, aside from the description saying it has chromium bands.

The mahogany set looks more reddish-brown, which I'd suppose would appear on the sets themselves... What do you think?

RotoTech99