Author Topic: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)  (Read 21593 times)

Offline dsk

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #330 on: March 02, 2017, 03:59:00 PM »
The AE marking is in an oval, and the dial has loud clicks when windup, compared to the dial in my AE40 it is noisy. Since the Norwegian phones always has been noisy (Like Antwerp phones) that has never got my attention before. This AE dial has the same contact configuration as a WE302.
The D1 with this dial is here: http://tinyurl.com/gm2l4g6  and the interesting thing is to have a WE with original chematics describing a dial from AE:


dsk
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 04:05:17 PM by dsk »

I have even got a regular New York number :-) 646 570 1796

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #331 on: March 02, 2017, 04:07:17 PM »
Yes, winding some sort of clock is what the type 24 clicks remind me of.

There are two methods of pawl quieting though I think. So thing about piano wire for one of the methods, probably in the 24A36. I think the 24A36 is still supposed to click on wind up but barely audible (?). Maybe the "other than piano wire" method was introduced on the type 51 and completely eliminated the clicks.

Terry

Dear AE Collector:

ISTR that to see if the AE rotary 24 type dial has a silencening pawl, you only need to remove the finger wheel and cardholder to check for it; it is visible as a small tab near the top of the fingerwheel mount; mist of it is hidden under the fingerwheel mount.

Frankly I've never thought of the windup clicks
on an unquieted AE dial to be all that loud, the clicks sort of remind me of an unoiled windup clock when u wind it.

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #332 on: March 08, 2017, 08:12:36 PM »
Here is something interesting.

On a Type 810 receiver capsule in the handset of a Camellia Pink 183 Space Saver.

Instead of a two letter code it has "wk. 266". This phone seems to have been made March 1962 by the 3-62-10 stamped code on the back of the 183.

Wk. 266 most likely stands for Week 266 I would think. They seemed to be playing with numerous different dating standards from late 50's to early 60's. So a little more confirmation that the two letter codes reference a date and an indication that AE kept track of week numbers rather than maybe months or "two week" time frames. The two letter codes would quite likely increment by the week as well. Therefore two complete alphabets in possibly the right position could be used to indicate a full year cycle with the left position incrementimg at the beginning of the year and again mid year. In this scenario they could cover 13 years but also may valve elected to start over after 10 years. Hard to say.

Terry

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #333 on: March 08, 2017, 08:19:39 PM »
You don't think the WK is the normal two-letter code, and  266 is the second week of 1966 ?
What is printed on the transmitter and the telephone body?
Ok, I can see the printing on the body.  NB 830 C  3-62-10
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 08:21:40 PM by unbeldi »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #334 on: March 08, 2017, 08:58:32 PM »
Of course anything is possible.

One difference wth the WK code here is that it seems to have a period after the K. I have not seen a period after any other two letter codes. And I have never seen digits such as 266 after the two letter codes before.

The transmitter capsule is marked A.E.CO 810 and coincidentally seems to have two letter code AE. If this capsule is original to the phone I guess it could be reasonable to have a capsule made in the 5th week (E) of the year in a phone ultimately marked as produced in March of the year. This could indicate that year A (or first half of a year) was 1962.

I could not find any other two letter codes or dates anywhere in this phone.

Certainly every phone model could have its own separate start date for two letter codes but this would seem a difficult system to manage especially considering type 81/810 handsets being used on so many different models in this era.

Terry

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #335 on: March 09, 2017, 12:19:21 AM »
And my Dawn Gray 183:

Thought I was on to something with this one but then realized it is May 1961 which is 10 months older than the pink 183.  This ones receiver also has WK. but is followed by 224 rather than 226.

The transmitter in this gray 183 from May 1961 looks to have two letter code ED where as the Pink 183 from March 1962 had Code AE. That sort of makes it look like the second letter field D=1961 and E=1962. The first letter could even be one letter per month with A (January) being in a March phone and E (May) in a May phone.

Lots of speculation. I need to check some more of these early 60's sets. A bit off track from the 40/50's but this all helps figure out the patterns they were using.

Terry

« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 12:26:44 AM by AE_Collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #336 on: March 09, 2017, 01:26:27 AM »
I ran out of time to do more research this evening but even so, I'm pumped! Wish I had moved on to 80/90 series phones sooner. I've seen enough tonight to say that I am convinced, these two letter codes are date codes.

The first letter is the month but it could be incremented every two weeks as I have some letters higher than L.

The second letter is the year incremented just once a year. Year A is 1958. So did they start at A-1958 because of the move yo Northlake? Or were these codes specific to individual models and 1958 may have been the very earliest 183 set? Or did it start back in 1932 and rolled over to A again in 1958?

Since all the 40/50 sets have these codes as well, this system may have previously started in 1932 at year A. Next to review the two letter codes on the bases/backs of 40/50's to see how they they fit into this.

Incidentally, 183's (Space Savers) have two letters on the back plate but they are almost always a C (Metropolitan Dial) and the second letter is the colour code. Then they have the 3-61-2 type date/assembly line codes as well.

Some of these are hard to see, I will get more samples and pictures soon. The 3 number codes on pieces of electrical tape are just my inventory number.

Examples from phones made in:
C - 1960 Blue 183 / Green 183
D- 1961 Gray 183 / Red 183
E - 1962 Pink 183
V/W - 1979 Avocado Green 192

I have more examples in between these years but I need to work on the pictures some more!

Wouldn't that be something if the second letter of this code nailed down the year that 40's and 50's were made!

Terry
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 10:52:56 AM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #337 on: March 09, 2017, 03:49:02 PM »
Well,  I can add a data point  for a 4123  marked 10-58-11, and code CA, which would map 1958 > A, in line with your list.  It might be reasonable to assume that the started new in Northlake, but for the entire production life of AE 40 and 50 it doesn't work out.

I already have 22 letters for the span of 1939 to 1957, which is a span of 19 years.
If I look at just those with B, of which I have 10 in the database, I could place it in at least three different years based on the patent lists, namely 1943, 1948, and 1952.
If I test for the adjacent 'C' (a year later by hypothesis), I get both pre-war and post-war selections.


select qa2,count(*) from ae group by qa2;
+------+----------+
| qa2  | count(*) |
+------+----------+
|      |       16 |
| ?    |        2 |
| A    |        5 |
| B    |       10 |
| C    |        6 |
| D    |        5 |
| E    |        3 |
| F    |        3 |
| G    |        7 |
| H    |        5 |
| J    |        8 |
| K    |        7 |
| L    |        4 |
| M    |        1 |
| N    |        5 |
| O    |        6 |
| P    |        3 |
| R    |        6 |
| S    |        7 |
| T    |        4 |
| U    |        8 |
| X    |        4 |
| Y    |        3 |
| Z    |        5 |
+------+----------+
24 rows in set (0.00 sec)


So, for second letters, I am missing letters I, Q, V, W.

For first letters, I am missing I,Q,V,W, and Z. 
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 03:52:46 PM by unbeldi »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #338 on: March 09, 2017, 04:48:45 PM »
Yes I only did a very quick scan of the 40/50's second letter of tge two letter codes and while may looked potentially on track for a A-1932 start, many others didn't.

I thought I recalled some Top of the alphabet letters for the late model (Northlake) 47 sets which initially seemed odd for late 40/50 type sets to have top of the alphabet year codes but it is starting to make sense now.

I have been going through 80/90 series (183's and 192's so far actually) phones from the 1960's and 70's this afternoon. Once I have more recorded I will make a chart. Besides dates on the back of the phone I am mainly finding two letter codes on transmitters and receivers which of course could easily have been changed or moved around. I am finding two letter codes on quite a few dials as well. Here is some of what I have found so far.

Month-Year / Two Letter Codes Observed:
3-1960 AC
12-1960 OC & CC
9-1961 CD
9-1965 EL (only code found - it was on receiver but it doesn't fit the pattern)
5-1971 EN
3-1979 CV & EW (EW is likely 1980)

Terry


« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 01:26:26 AM by AE_Collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #339 on: March 10, 2017, 01:45:26 AM »
I will check my records to see if I can find any of the letters that you have no records for Unbeldi. Are your records primarily base/back plates of 40/50 series phones or can they be from other components and possibly 80/90 series phones?

I recorded a few more phones today but need to do more. All indications are that all or virtually all letters are being used for the Year and quite likely a letter every two weeks or maybe a letter for the first and another for the last half of the month. I need to record more samples.

Terry

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #340 on: March 10, 2017, 08:59:22 AM »
I included only the base plate codes from 40, 47, and 50 type sets in that count until the coding changed to month-year-something in 1957.
I do have others too, 34, 43, 80 type sets.

This count was the reason I had already abandoned the idea that the codes were simply a "<some period>-year"-type coding.  If it were we should also expect to see the same coding across product lines. As you stated, it would be way too confusing for a company to have independent coding systems for each product, especially in light of the fact that transmitters and receivers are identical for many different products.  What would be the purpose to code them differently, no one could trace anything back to manufacturing if presented only with a defective transmitter.  The codes have to be unique otherwise the whole system is useless.

It would be interesting to figure out when AE starting coding sets this way.  I have records from 1A sets, I think, but I don't know how old those are, but it has a five-point hookswitch which I don't think existed before 1932-1934 perhaps.  None of the #2 Monophones I have seen have codes stamped, but it is hard to see that in most pictures, because the plates always seem surface oxidized.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 09:06:04 AM by unbeldi »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #341 on: March 10, 2017, 10:39:22 AM »
I actually do have one record with the letter 'I' in the first position:

Z 22954-1 IX9      D-780504-A41; chrome trim & dial, black lift bar, (Z|OPER|0), 2-line numcard

I don't know whether I recorded it correctly or not. One of those non-standard markings with what appears to be some customer number or other order number, presumably from the period 1952 to 1955.

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #342 on: March 10, 2017, 11:35:15 AM »
If they used all 26 letters in the potential 1932-57 / A-Z timeframe, X could be 1955 since A appears to restart in 1958.

I have been trying to create a bunch more records of 80/90 series phones where I can get both a date off the base and two letter codes off components. Then I will start a chart once I get enough samples. From what I have so far I am not seeing any indication that they skipped any of the I, O, or Q's for the year in the 1958 - 1983 timeframe. But small sample size thus far.

Terry

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #343 on: March 10, 2017, 11:48:24 AM »
If they used all 26 letters in the potential 1932-57 / A-Z timeframe, X could be 1955 since A appears to restart in 1958.

I have been trying to create a bunch more records of 80/90 series phones where I can get both a date off the base and two letter codes off components. Then I will start a chart once I get enough samples. From what I have so far I am not seeing any indication that they skipped any of the I, O, or Q's for the year in the 1958 - 1983 timeframe. But small sample size thus far.

Terry

Yes, I had noticed that too.  Somehow, 1932 also seems a reasonable starting year perhaps. It's about the time the 34A3 was getting ready.  If we eliminate just a couple letters for fear of confusion, and move the start up to 1934, we are exactly on the year of the 34A3, without changing the end.    Also, we need to examine the issue of those cases in which the digit was printed first.   Does that mean the entire code was reversed, or only the digit placed first?      It seems to me that this occurred more frequently on early codings.   For example, the 1A I mentioned starts with 7.

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #344 on: March 12, 2017, 08:40:24 PM »
Here are three observations of Type 40 phones.  All three were apparently made at the beginning of the war period, they have the same patent stamp of that period. The finish of the bottom plate is identical, they all have the code prefix T, and two of them have the code sequence "HC1", another is "4OH".  The two dial instruments both have numbers-only dials, both have chrome trim and have the holes in the cradle for the butler lift handle.  It also seems the rubber buffer around the base was equally broken up, i.e. missing today.  The ink stamping of the type is identical in shape, spacing, and intensity on all three sets.  Good ink.  The rubber grommets for the ringer mount are the same tan rubber that we know was used by WECo for dial adapters until 1941.

TN 4028 B0 HC1      1939 stamp, no dial with magneto wood subset
TN 4020 A0 HC1      1939 stamp, numbers only dial, chrome trim on dial and handset, no liftbar, butler holes
TN 4020 A0 4OH      1939 stamp, numbers only dial, chrome trim on dial and handset, no liftbar, butler holes

If we reverse the sequence "4OH"  to "HO4", the three sets also have the "H" in common, which could be interpreted as a year.  Interestingly, if we start the year counting in 1932 with A, then H is 1939 !

The 4028 is a local battery set for use with a magneto subset and the 4020 is the common and most frequently encountered CB set of the early low-impedance ringer class.

It is clear that these set were made in the same period. The convergence of features in these sets may be an indication that the codes that have a leading digit should be reversed when compared to codes that have the digit in the trailing position.  Interestingly, the leading-digit set has a different digit, 4.   Does this indicate a different location somehow, perhaps a different assembly line or QA line which used reversed stamps ?

I also have Type 5000 listed, with code HC9.   5000 was the code for the first made wall phones.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 08:54:08 PM by unbeldi »