Author Topic: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)  (Read 17089 times)

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #345 on: March 13, 2017, 12:29:53 AM »
Interesting. I have NO "T" prefixes in my records so far.

You recently mentioned a set with NLL format rather than LLN in the third field. I cant recall what the Number was but it wasn't 4. I had the feeling then that the majority of the records I have where Number and Letters are reversed like this was with Number 4. I just went through my records and the reversed instances are listed below. Four early 40'S, AN EARLY 50, A 34a3 AND A 35a5:

SN   4020   A0   4B0 (40)
SN   4020   A0   4FR (40)
SN   4020   A0   4BG (40)
SN   4022   A0   4RS (40)
L      5000   B0   9XR (50)
L      253   A0   90A (34A3)
L      370   A0   9CS (35A5)

I am not certain if the 34 and the 35 are valid comparisons or not as I have only three records of 34/35 sets that include the third field of which two of them are in reverse order.

The 40's and 50's with the reversed scenario are all early sets similar to your 3 examples.

I picture the possibility of assembly line "4" having a stamp that had damaged numbers or letters in certain positions so they simply reversed to order to make use of otherwise unused numbers in the letter position or visa versa. I guess it could be that simple or it could be a highly technical reason for the reversal. I would have thought that they would keep the letters in the correct relationship to each other even if they reversed the number and letters positioning rather than flipping them like a mirror image. But we need to be able to think as they may have 75-80 years ago.

Terry
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 12:31:56 AM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #346 on: March 13, 2017, 09:36:14 AM »
Have some of those too, probably because I did record forum observations.

Interestingly, all of my sets with a properly trailing 4 are AE50s (four), and all of those with a leading 4 are those early 4020 or 4022 sets.

PS:  Ah, sorry, actually that is not true.  I also have a SN 4020 A3 AS4.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 11:21:37 AM by unbeldi »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #347 on: March 13, 2017, 11:12:06 AM »
Do you (or anyone) have any records for a 4030 or 4036 ?

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #348 on: March 13, 2017, 11:54:05 AM »
Sometimes, or often, I have to wonder whether they even had a fixed rule for the sequence of these codes.

SN 4020 B5 SA7
SN 4020 A3 AS4

See these examples, both SN4020 sets, both have early patent stamps (1939), one apparently has better corrosion protection.  Both already have black rubber grommets. Both probably made between 1939 and 1943.   How can the codes be so far off,   "A" vs. "S", no matter which we take as "year".  Or should AS4  really be flipped to make it "SA4"?

But neither A nor S fit into our conceived code plan, no matter which year it starts exactly.

Different base finish might indicate different plant locations, or perhaps a different assembly line for experiments with new materials.



Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #349 on: March 13, 2017, 01:18:48 PM »
Yes that is puzzling. I think the bases with that silvery look are brass where as the corroded base must be steel with some sort of anodized or galvanized finish? Likely more war time changes?

I have wondered if there is any likelihood that sets with the leading S prefix (and maybe the T as well) could be refurbished where the operation was organized enough to re-stamp the codes to some extent. WECo did it (properly re-stamped refurbished sets and upgraded parts) so maybe phones sent to AE plants for refurbishing were properly re-stamped.  Who knows if any other coding would have been changed at refurbishing. Possibly dial in ringer codes would be but production date/assembly line codes...wouldn't think so.

Frequently these additional leading letters look as though they were added in a separate stamping operation, not along with the main (original) letter. Adding a letter to the far left of the codes would be an easy way to indicate that it was refurbished and the plant or line (S or T) that did the work. As previously concluded, all instances of a leading P indicates a Canadian Phone (P = Phillips or Later AE Canada) but I am not certain if all Canadian Phones have the leading P or maybe just refurbished (in Canada) phones? I suspect that ALL Canadian made phones have the P.

Do there seem to be more lower numbered "order code number" phones with the additional S or T prefix? Logically more early production 40/50 phones would have been in service for a length of time, removed from service fir whatever reason, sent for refurbishment and then redeployed again. Generally the newer 40/50 sets (higher order number codes) would have begun to be removed when they were replaced with newer models such as 80/90 series phones and the takeouts would have been more likely to be scrapped as obsolete rather than being refurbished again.

And another possibility could be a timeframe where AE offered refurbishing services to Telco's that may have latter been shut down.

Terry
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 01:23:49 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #350 on: March 13, 2017, 02:12:25 PM »
Do you (or anyone) have any records for a 4030 or 4036 ?


I have zero records of any 403x phones at all.

Back to the SN or SL phones here is what I have records of. It is primarily the lower order numbered 40xx sets but two 4123's slipped in as well. The 50 sets are all 50xx sets:
SL   4123   ?SL   
SL   4123   ASL   UB9
SN   4020   A0   GH7
SN   4020   A0   4B0
SN   4020   A0   4FR
SN   4020   A0   4BG
SN   4022   A0   RS1
SN   4022   A0   4RS
SN   4023   A6   XL7
SN   4046   B0   TK7
SN   4053   A0   GH9
SN   402(?)

SL   5000   A0   RB5
SL   5000   A4   LE9
SL   5016   D0   EO5
SZL   5002   A0   GB9


Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #351 on: March 13, 2017, 02:18:47 PM »
And while I am at it here is my list of PL/PN sets. Notice that there is never a digit in the third (date/line) field, the P at the very beginning identifies them as phones made in Canada so the final digit isn't needed or isn't used to identify an assembly line. And unlike the S added to the front of the code which primarily is on 40xx/50xx phones, I have more P 51xx examples showing that the P was likely used throughout the production time frame. Remember that wwhere there is a third letter in the third field such as the very bottom 5100 phone, that is a color code.

PL   4103   HSLT   OP
PN   4023   E0   NR
PN   4023   K0   ET
PN   4023   K0   ER(?)

PL   5001   K0   
PL   5001   K0   None
PL   5001   K0   JL
PL   5001   K0   None
PL   5001   K0   JS
PL   5001   K0   ??
PL   5100   D20   O
PL   5100   D20T   TN
PL   5100   D30   AN
PL   5100   DSL   O
PL   5100   E20   OGE
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 02:21:14 PM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #352 on: March 13, 2017, 02:32:23 PM »
I have zero records of any 403x phones at all.


You should at least have this one:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16986.msg180433#msg180433
You posted it, lol.

It's one of those felt-covered bottoms where we can see the number only on the schematic inside.
I couldn't decide whether another the set was a 4030 or 4036, so my reason for asking.  I have to find the picture again, I probably saved it.

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #353 on: March 13, 2017, 02:42:19 PM »
While we are making more progress than ever before on this project, it will obviously go on for some time yet. We need a standard reference for the various sections of code so we can be clearer about what in particular we are discussing.

Using this as an example:
PL   5100   E20   OG9E

How about:
P is a Prefix (if present)
L is the Order Letter
5100 is the Order Number
E20 is the "Second Field" or Equipment Field (we know it identifies the Dial and Ringer)
OG9E is the "Third Field" or Date, Line, Color Field (we are pretty much convinced that the two letters are a Date indicator, the number is an Assembly Line and we are 100% certain that when present the final letter is a Color Code)

Or should we refer to the contents of the second and third field more directly as:
Dial Code
Ringer Code
Date Code
Assembly Line Code
Color Code

While we aren't claiming that these names for the fields 100% indicative of the contents of the fields, I think we are close enough to use these names to simplify discussion

Thus: PL   5100   E20   OG9E would be:

P - Prefix (if present and can be a two letter Prefix before the Order Letter)
L - Order Letter
5100 - Order Number
E - Dial Code
20 - Ringer Code
OG - Date Code
9 - Assembly Line Code
E - Color Code

Any thoughts welcome!

Terry


« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 02:47:11 PM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #354 on: March 13, 2017, 02:50:20 PM »
While we are making more progress than ever before on this project, it will obviously go on for some time yet. We need a standard reference for the various sections of code so we can be clearer about what in particular we are discussing.


I think 2nd and 3rd field is fine for now.  Especially for the 3rd, since we still don't know what it represents.  People read these posts from the Internet, I am sure, and someone may try to look smarter than we are by using more specific terms, such as assembly line.   This is how rumors get started, for example, like people call the final digit in WECo date stamps, a shift number.  There is no evidence of that, in fact there no evidence even to suggest that they ran shifts 24/7, but there is to the contrary.

While we think that we understand the 2nd group, it is not at all clear to me what a  J or K coded dial would be.

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #355 on: March 13, 2017, 02:56:33 PM »
You should at least have this one:  http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=16986.msg180433#msg180433
You posted it, lol.

It's one of those felt-covered bottoms where we can see the number only on the schematic inside.
I couldn't decide whether another the set was a 4030 or 4036, so my reason for asking.  I have to find the picture again, I probably saved it.

Yeah that one didn't make my list because I don't have the rest of the phone. I have tried to weed out the ones where I cant get a reasonable amount of the information about the entire phone. I didn't even pay any attention to the code on the felt base until now. Too bad I didn't have the rest of it. Maybe I do, I will have to watch for it.

Terry
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 04:06:52 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #356 on: March 13, 2017, 03:13:39 PM »
I think 2nd and 3rd field is fine for now.  Especially for the 3rd, since we still don't know what it represents.  People read these posts from the Internet, I am sure, and someone may try to look smarter than we are by using more specific terms, such as assembly line.   This is how rumors get started, for example, like people call the final digit in WECo date stamps, a shift number.  There is no evidence of that, in fact there no evidence even to suggest that they ran shifts 24/7, but there is to the contrary.

While we think that we understand the 2nd group, it is not at all clear to me what a  J or K coded dial would be.

Okay, good points.

PL   5100   E20   OG9E

P - Prefix (if present and can be a two letter Prefix before the Order Letter)
L - Order Letter
5100 - Order Number
E20 - Second Field
OG9E - Third Field

Potentially these should have been Third field and Fourth Field but we have already been calling them Second and Third Fields. And the Initial letter and 4 digit number are related to each other (somehow) as Order Numbers.

Terry

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #357 on: March 13, 2017, 03:20:32 PM »
While inventorying my AE 183 collection I discovered something a little bit interesting with regards to L versus N numbering. Check out this list. The Thing in common with the L versus N sets....Manual Compensator on the L sets.

183   Beige-Sand   L   8311   CB
183   Beige-Sand   NB   830   CB
183   Black-Ebony   L   8308   B2
183   Black-Ebony   NB   830   CA
183   Black-Ebony   NB   830   CA
183   Blue-FMN   L   8311   CK
183   Gray-Dawn   NB   830   CC
183   Green-Jade   L   8311   CD
183   Green-Jade   NB   830   AD
183   Green-Jade   NB   830   AD
183   Ivory-Classic   NB   830   CE
183   Ivory-Classic   NB   830   CE
183   Pink-Camellia   NB   830   CL
183   Red-Garnet   NB   830   CF
183   Turquoise     NB   830   CG
183   White-Gardenia   NB   830   CM
183   Yellow-Sunlight   NB   830   CM
183   Yellow-Sunlight   NB   830   CJ

Terry
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 04:07:32 PM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #358 on: March 13, 2017, 03:38:31 PM »
While inventorying my AE 183 collection I discovered something a little bit interesting with regards to L versus N numbering. Check out this list. The Thing in common with the L versus N sets....Manual Compensator.

There was a similar pattern for the Type 80.  One of the modifications had the order number L-800x, instead of N-80 or N-81.

The N vs. L for type 40 sets goes pretty much strictly along with 40 vs. 41.  It is always N-40xx and L-41xx, with a few exceptions. Perhaps there was some short period of overlap.

Wall phones always used L-50xx and L-51xx, never N.


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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #359 on: March 13, 2017, 03:58:08 PM »
The 4055N Catalog listed a whole bunch of letter codes for AE SATT dials that I initially thought was promising to decode some of the letters beyond the ABC range that we understand for 40/50 telephones. See picture below. I assume that they were allowing phones with these SATT dials to be ordered pre set for the party where they would be installed. Seems a bit overkill but if viewed from a point of view where a Telco decided to convert an entire office to SATT Long Distance operation this may make sense.

In any event, these dial codes must most likely have just been put together for 80/90 dials as from what we have seen the 40/50 telephones used the Order Number to specify a SATT dial versus a Conventional Dial. Then the A or C of the Second Field specified Numbers Only or Metropolitan Number Plate.

I don't know enough about SATT A versus SATT B and which came first. They assigned these letters to the two types in reverse (SATT B then A) order for whatever reason. There would be a small chance that the occasional Dial Letter D, E etc on 40/50 Base Codes could have specified how a SATT Dial equipped phone was pre set from the factory while the Order Number was what specified that the phone actually HAD a SATT dial.

The letters below is a good example of where AE chose to skip the "confusing" letters I, O and Q.

Terry
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 04:03:15 PM by AE_Collector »