Author Topic: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)  (Read 17079 times)

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #360 on: March 13, 2017, 04:17:16 PM »
Wall phones always used L-50xx and L-51xx, never N.

This is the most puzzling thing to me. 40's and 50's were electrically the same so what is it that led to their being absolutely No N50's when 40's appear to have started out as N40's initially. Almost like they were sort of using L and N as simple indicators of various differences between two otherwise similar models. With the 40 and 50 N was desk phones and L was wall phones....for awhile at least until L desk phones appeared. In 183 Space Makers, L was manually compensated and N Automatic compensation. Yet, the 80 came before the 183 and they started out as N sets even though they had Manual Compensators.

Our work isn't quite done yet.....

Terry

Offline HarrySmith

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #361 on: March 13, 2017, 04:31:29 PM »
While inventorying my AE 183 collection I discovered something a little bit interesting with regards to L versus N numbering. Check out this list. The Thing in common with the L versus N sets....Manual Compensator on the L sets.

183   Beige-Sand   L   8311   CB
183   Beige-Sand   NB   830   CB
183   Black-Ebony   L   8308   B2
183   Black-Ebony   NB   830   CA
183   Black-Ebony   NB   830   CA
183   Blue-FMN   L   8311   CK
183   Gray-Dawn   NB   830   CC
183   Green-Jade   L   8311   CD
183   Green-Jade   NB   830   AD
183   Green-Jade   NB   830   AD
183   Ivory-Classic   NB   830   CE
183   Ivory-Classic   NB   830   CE
183   Pink-Camellia   NB   830   CL
183   Red-Garnet   NB   830   CF
183   Turquoise     NB   830   CG
183   White-Gardenia   NB   830   CM
183   Yellow-Sunlight   NB   830   CM
183   Yellow-Sunlight   NB   830   CJ

Terry

Terry,

ONLY 18 183's?? I thought you had hundreds!! :)
Harry Smith
ATCA 4434
TCI

"There is no try,
there is only
do or do not"

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #362 on: March 13, 2017, 04:53:15 PM »
N/L seems to have nothing to do with features, just some bureaucratic coding. I don't put too much significance into N versus L.

L was always the standard order number prefix for almost all AE equipment.

I think we should interpret N meaning NEW. :)

The type 50 didn't really look that new compared to the 35, certainly less than the 40 looked different from the 34.
By the time it came to switch to high-impedance ringers, N reverted back to L. I think this was ca. 1948/49, same time the L4106/11 (Type 47) came out.
Some short time after the switch, when someone wanted low-impedance ringer set from the factory, they appear to have been coded  L-40xx.   The L stayed, the 41 reverted to 40.

unbeldi

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #363 on: March 13, 2017, 06:44:43 PM »
The 4055N Catalog listed a whole bunch of letter codes for AE SATT dials that I initially thought was promising to decode some of the letters beyond the ABC range that we understand for 40/50 telephones. See picture below. I assume that they were allowing phones with these SATT dials to be ordered pre set for the party where they would be installed. Seems a bit overkill but if viewed from a point of view where a Telco decided to convert an entire office to SATT Long Distance operation this may make sense.

In any event, these dial codes must most likely have just been put together for 80/90 dials as from what we have seen the 40/50 telephones used the Order Number to specify a SATT dial versus a Conventional Dial. Then the A or C of the Second Field specified Numbers Only or Metropolitan Number Plate.

I don't know enough about SATT A versus SATT B and which came first. They assigned these letters to the two types in reverse (SATT B then A) order for whatever reason. There would be a small chance that the occasional Dial Letter D, E etc on 40/50 Base Codes could have specified how a SATT Dial equipped phone was pre set from the factory while the Order Number was what specified that the phone actually HAD a SATT dial.

The letters below is a good example of where AE chose to skip the "confusing" letters I, O and Q.

Terry

Thanks for the pointer to those tables.  I had forgot about those.
I have never noticed a SATT dial when the coding was K or J, but I have only very few listed.  I have on the other hand noticed the distinct order number for SATT telephones, 4107, 4119, and could verify the presence of a SATT dial.  SATT probably became only prominent in the 1950s with the push for DDD, I have not recorded any SATT dials on low-impedance ringer sets, I believe.

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #364 on: March 13, 2017, 06:55:29 PM »
Terry,

ONLY 18 183's?? I thought you had hundreds!! :)

No, that must be Stub!!

I do have the complete set and a couple of spares though....

I may have a couple hundred Stylelines though. Waiting for them to be worth $100 each. Or anyone who just wants to start collecting a full set of Stylelines....

Terry

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #365 on: March 13, 2017, 07:08:10 PM »
N/L seems to have nothing to do with features, just some bureaucratic coding. I don't put too much significance into N versus L.

L was always the standard order number prefix for almost all AE equipment.

I think we should interpret N meaning NEW. :)

The type 50 didn't really look that new compared to the 35, certainly less than the 40 looked different from the 34.
By the time it came to switch to high-impedance ringers, N reverted back to L. I think this was ca. 1948/49, same time the L4106/11 (Type 47) came out.
Some short time after the switch, when someone wanted low-impedance ringer set from the factory, they appear to have been coded  L-40xx.   The L stayed, the 41 reverted to 40.


Well that is possible as well, N for new circuits being developed, produced, field trialled etc. Maybe it stuck for awhile in production and then eventually changed back to the standard L codes leaving N available for the next new design. AE50's came a bit after the 40 so maybe that is why they went straight to L codes, they were electrically equivalent to 40's so no need to make them N codes. All seems sort of silly but we haven't got a better explanation at the moment!

When we have nothing better to do we can try to figure out why they seem to have started with L and what L means. Maybe Strowger sets went through Alphabetic revisions eventually landing at L for 2 wire common battery systems.

Terry
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 08:26:57 PM by AE_Collector »

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #366 on: March 13, 2017, 07:28:04 PM »
L-numbers seem to have started in the early 1930s.  The 1929 catalog uses simple numbers without letter prefix for whole telephone assemblies.  For example, a 1A Monophone was a 1003, IIRC.  Most of the Monophones used the type number of the set as a hundred group.  A #4 Monophone was 401, a #14 was 1401...  Even a No. 21 was 2100.

Piece part numbers were D-numbers.  Circuit drawings were H-numbers.   Many tools were H-numbers too.
At one time they seem to have started using L-numbers by the first 4055 catalog.  But the simple numbers were listed too.  A 1003 was still the 1A, but the new sets, such as the 34A3 was an L-22x.
I'd like to find the 4014, 4037, 5002 catalogs for the development of this.

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #367 on: March 13, 2017, 08:36:38 PM »
To me the 1A set WAS a 1003 until just the last few years when I have had to retrain myself to call it a 1A once dealing with other collectors online. I called them 1003's (One Thousand and Three) for years and my friend grant who just passed away always called them 1003's.

Yes those "missing" catalogs would likely have some interesting info in them. They must be out there somewhere. Will have to keep looking and asking and more info will turn up. I am working on Gary Goff to see what he has on his book shelves. My friend Grant had a book case full of books and catalogs that I will go through to make certain there isn't something there that I don't have. I have looked through his paperwork in the past but probably wasn't looking from a viewpoint to solving some of these mysteries at that time.

Terry


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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #368 on: March 13, 2017, 11:04:13 PM »
I just posted in the AE Catalogs topic that I found an earlier version of the Automatic Electric Publications List that Unbeldi just made available in that topic.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2959.msg40198#msg40198

This version from January 1948 is a complete update of the list of all AE Publications available as of January 1948. It is called "Digest of technical publications" Engineering Memorandum 3013 January 1948 Edition.

I was able to get the titles of these 3 "missing" catalogs from this 3013 Catalog:
4014 - "Dial Telephones and Telephone Parts"  (Catalogue 4055 says it supercedes 4014, 4037 & 5002)
4037 - "Substation Equipment" (Catalogue 4055 says it supercedes 4014, 4037 & 5002)
5002 - "Manual Telephones & Telephone Parts  (Catalogue 4055 says it supercedes 4014, 4037 & 5002)

And I found listings for a few other catalog's listed that may be of interest:
4013F - "PAX Telephones"
4033B - "Private Telephone Systems and Accessories"
4075B - "Telephone Apparatus & Supplies"

AND, I found a listing for the next catalog I want to find:
"Telephone Instruments 1892 to 1922" Published in September 1922.

When looking up Monophones in the January 1940 3013 it lists the AE 47 set and indicates that a publication is currently being prepared. Thus the 47 set was either available in January 1948 or getting very close to being available.

Terry
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 11:40:20 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline stub

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #369 on: March 13, 2017, 11:58:34 PM »
Terry,
         I only have 12 and not a full set yet.    stub
Kenneth Stubblefield        
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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #370 on: March 14, 2017, 12:02:58 AM »
Just tossing things of interest into this topic as I find them this evening.

In Technical Bulletin 948-816 "The Toll Switch Train" (Copywrite 1961), inside the cover is a picture of the new 37 Acre Northlake Illinois Plant. It goes on to say "Branch Factories are located at Genoa Illinois and Waukesha Wisconsin. These modern facilities are devoted exclusively to the manufacture of a complete line of Automatic Telephone Equipment, electrical control components and systems".

So, in 1961 those three locations seem to be it for AE manufacturing in the USA. Thus if any of those locations made telephone sets they could have just been another Assembly Line number but they also could have been the S and/or T Prefix just as P was the Canadian plant Prefix. Genoa Illinois would be the Leich Electric Plant wouldn't it? The only problem is that most of the S and T Prefixed phones seem likely to have been made in the 1940's where as these locations are being mentioned in 1961.

Terry

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #371 on: March 14, 2017, 12:04:51 AM »
Terry,
         I only have 12 and not a full set yet.    stub

Oh right, still no jade Green? Is that the only one missing? Are you actively hunting for one on eBay? They aren't that hard to find are they?

Rumour has it that there will be a Clear 183 coming from the workshops of Ray K in the near future.

Terry

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #372 on: March 14, 2017, 12:41:12 AM »
Terry,
         I don't have  a C or D and waiting on the clear to come out to see if I can get one. Still looking every where.
         BTW that's great work you and unbeldi are doing on the Codes. Thanks , again  stub   
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 12:45:07 AM by stub »
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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #373 on: March 14, 2017, 12:55:43 PM »
To me the 1A set WAS a 1003 until just the last few years when I have had to retrain myself to call it a 1A once dealing with other collectors online. I called them 1003's (One Thousand and Three) for years and my friend grant who just passed away always called them 1003's.

Yes those "missing" catalogs would likely have some interesting info in them. They must be out there somewhere. Will have to keep looking and asking and more info will turn up. I am working on Gary Goff to see what he has on his book shelves. My friend Grant had a book case full of books and catalogs that I will go through to make certain there isn't something there that I don't have. I have looked through his paperwork in the past but probably wasn't looking from a viewpoint to solving some of these mysteries at that time.

Terry
I just checked the 1929 catalogs...  The 1A is listed there with order number 103 still, in line with the other low numbered Monophones.  I suppose they changed the order number to 1003 for the version with the 5-point hookswitch.

The designations 103 and 1003 specifically referred to the desk instrument only.  When it was combined with a subset, it was either a 101 or 102, and 1001 or 1002, depending on the ringing arrangement.

I think I have only one listing for an ink stamp of any 1A or 11A on the bottom plate:   ZL 1109 A0 7LK
This was an 11-A with 5point hookswitch.

I suppose, the designation 1-A should be used when one means any of the design type of 1A, i.e. the Monophone model type.  Same for Type 40, which had many specific incarnations, 4020, 4023, 4123, ...
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 01:02:38 PM by unbeldi »

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Re: AE 40, 47 & 50 Base Code Observations (2017!)
« Reply #374 on: March 14, 2017, 07:40:38 PM »
I think I have only one listing for an ink stamp of any 1A or 11A on the bottom plate:   ZL 1109 A0 7LK
This was an 11-A with 5point hookswitch.

So whether the year were K or L, if A=1932 then K=1943 and L=1944 which is very possible for a 1A or 11A.

Of the few records I have of phones with model numbers lower than "40", I have no Third Field Base Codes recorded.
I have an AE 2 with a transmitter code JX (J=1941 & X=1955 both unlikely years so likely replacement parts if A=1932 - Z=1957 is correct)
Stub has an AE 2 with a transmitter code XOC (C could be 1934, a possibility)
Stub has an AE14 L-346 with a transmitter code FK (F=1937 or K=1942 both possibilities)

My two AE2's have dated condensers rather than two letter codes. They are 5-27 and 7-28 fitting in perfectly with the time frame for AE2's. And since they are dated rather than coded that is another indication that two letter codes for dates may have started after 1928, potentially 1932 as we are thinking.

Stub: DO you have a Month-Year stamped on the Condenser in your AE2?

Terry
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 10:16:27 PM by AE_Collector »