Author Topic: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference  (Read 2886 times)

unbeldi

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Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« on: January 10, 2017, 12:06:11 PM »
Here is an attempt to summarize the patents listed on the decals and labels of Automatic Electric Type 40, 50, etc telephone sets.

This currently includes only the early stamps and labels of ca. 1939, and Form  D-780504 in its various versions.
This is a work in progress.  I left empty columns for version that we know about, but I have not recorded in detail yet.  If anyone wants to record the missing information, please feel free to print the table and fill with check marks or add patents, or communicate somehow your findings.

The patent labels from Northlake starting in 1957 (D-780575-A), did not have patents listed anymore, at least those that I have found.

Sorry that the table is just a screenshot of my working version.  I format this in wiki markup. It would of course be nice to reformat the table in SMF forum markup here.  A spreadsheet would certainly be easiest to maintain, but that has its drawbacks for me.  My original table has hyperlinks to my patent database, so I can pull up each patent instantly on the screen.



PS:  Original table has been removed.  This is the latest update.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 11:33:31 PM by unbeldi »

unbeldi

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2017, 12:26:58 PM »
These decals were issued in many versions of the same basic form number.  We are missing many of the intermediate versions.
In addition the same form number was issued in at least three 'letter versions':  A, B, and C.

I included two columns, B19 and C21 with some data in them. These are for wall phones.  B19 is complete from my record, I think I have C data as well somewhere, but haven't located it yet.  In any case, by the example of the B19 data, we could speculate that the issue numbers following the letters A, B, and C might actually be sequenced irrespective of the letter code.
For example AE may have incremented the issue across the letter codes, as follows:

A1,..., A18, B19, ..., C21, ..., A28, ...

This might explain why there are so many different issues numbers, from 1 to 46 in only a span of 15 years or so.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 12:35:46 PM by unbeldi »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2017, 12:51:07 PM »
Good project Unbeldi! This should eventually provide one method to somewhat narrow down the manufacture date of any particular example of an AE40 or AE50 as well as other AE models in the same timeframe as long as the phone has an intact Patent label.

Good idea to keep it separate from the Base Code discussions as well since it isn't directly related to the base codes.

I have always had a very poor understanding of these labels on AE phones and I have paid little attention to the actual patents.

To help me understand, there is only the one label/ink stamp with form number D-780504 used on these phones but there are different "issue numbers" , for example the -A19 extension? I thought I saw a couple of references to a D-780503 label in the AE Base Code discussion and I meant to ask if that was a typo or not. Most often this label is a gold water transfer type label but both paper labels and ink stamp labels are also possible.

With regards to each -Axx extension, the exact same patent numbers will always be on any one particular example, say the -A19 extension for example? Your chart records each patent that is on each of the different D-780504 -Axx labels. Thus in my Excel list of Base Codes I really only need to record that "label extension" number. I think you said that somewhere already...just making certain.

I will be happy to look for labels that aren't on your chart as well as the ones that are on your chart but with missing patent info. I can send it to you or post it here for you to add to your chart.

Terry
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 12:56:41 PM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2017, 01:32:09 PM »
Good project Unbeldi! This should eventually provide one method to somewhat narrow down the manufacture date of any particular example of an AE40 or AE50 as well as other AE models in the same timeframe as long as the phone has an intact Patent label.

Good idea to keep it separate from the Base Code discussions as well since it isn't directly related to the base codes.

I have always had a very poor understanding of these labels on AE phones and I have paid little attention to the actual patents.

To help me understand, there is only the one label/ink stamp with form number D-780504 used on these phones but there are different "issue numbers" , for example the -A19 extension? I thought I saw a couple of references to a D-780503 label in the AE Base Code discussion and I meant to ask if that was a typo or not. Most often this label is a gold water transfer type label but both paper labels and ink stamp labels are also possible.

With regards to each -Axx extension, the exact same patent numbers will always be on any one particular example, say the -A19 extension for example? Your chart records each patent that is on each of the different D-780504 -Axx labels. Thus in my Excel list of Base Codes I really only need to record that "label extension" number. I think you said that somewhere already...just making certain.

I will be happy to look for labels that aren't on your chart as well as the ones that are on your chart but with missing patent info. I can send it to you or post it here for you to add to your chart.

Terry

Yes, the label versions shown  with A, B, or C version numbers are all the same form number  D-780504.   I'll go back to see if I mistyped that previously.
It is quite possible of course that other label D-numbers exist, in fact, we know they exist, but I doubt they would pertain to standard Type 40 sets.  Perhaps they exist for sets with special features, I don't know.  Only careful recording of samples will help with that.

I have seen the same form number-version-issue (or whatever terms we might use) in slightly different layouts on the decal, but containing the identical information.  I do not record those differences, but I do keep images too.  In a wiki, it is easier to keep them all on one page, just a long list of each type, which is my original format. But that is hard to share and doesn't provide the easier cross-reference that this new table does.

Some decals also came in form of an ink stamp.

I have not yet included the transition from Chicago to Chicago 7 in the year assignments.  That transition appears to have happened before  ľA1 came out, i.e. in the transition period from stamps and paper labels to golden decals.  I think you are placing that transition in 1943 (?), so the A1 year could be updated to that.

There is some oddity with the sequencing of the versions after A18, they do not contain the 1948 patent that is on A18.  But I assigned them to 1948 just as well for now, because it seems unlikely they would have decremented issue numbers.  They probably just decided not to list that patent anymore (dial improvements).
Finding more intermediate versions of the decals might help here.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 01:35:01 PM by unbeldi »

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2017, 02:03:13 PM »
With Automatic Electric, if there is just an occasional "oddity" in something we should probably consider ourselves lucky!

I can't recall where I got the info about the Chicago -> Chicago 7 change. I wrote the info down when I heard it somewhere possibly on one of "the lists". It was the year (1943) that the Chicago Post Office introduced Postal Stations or whatever they are called in the USA so all existing mailing addresses had a digit added after Chicago. I thought this would be fairly easy to Google but I must be using the wrong terminology as I can't find any reference online at the moment.

Terry
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 10:43:59 PM by AE_Collector »

unbeldi

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2017, 02:06:38 PM »
With Automatic a Electric, if there is just an occasional "oddity" in something we should probably consider ourselves lucky!

I can't recall where I got the info about the Chicago -> Chicago 7 change. I wrote the info down when I heard it somewhere possibly on one of "the lists". It was the year (1943) that the Chicago Post Office introduced Postal Stations or whatever they are called in the USA so all existing mailing addresses had a digit added after Chicago. I thought this would be fairly easy to Google but I must be using the wrong terminology as I can't find any reference online at the moment.

Terry

Ah yes.   Wikipedia reports that "The United States Post Office Department (USPOD) implemented postal zones for numerous large cities in 1943."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIP_Code

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2017, 02:40:33 PM »
Looking for some of the missing info in my Excel lists. So far I have records of sets with labels A7, A28, A32, A46, B23, C21. But unfortunately they were all before I started recording the actual patent numbers and none are from my phones.

A7 was on an eBay Chinese Red Chicago-7 AE40 set but I have no L/N numbers recorded. I have that the label had 12 patents plus the Des #117876 but not sure I have ever seen more than 11 patents on a label, could be a counting error.

A28 was in an eBay Old Ivory Chicago-7 AE40 L4125 BSLE SN7 set and label had 6 patents plus the Des #.

A32 was on an eBay Jade Green Chicago-7 AE40 L4044 D50D EH7 set with 8 patents plus des #.

The two A46 labels are on L4111 Chicago-7 AE 47 sets and the good news is one of the records is a 47 belonging to Stub. So Stub, can you find it and report all of the details on the label? The other label was on a 47 reported to me by CRPF "GG" who vanished from this forum several years ago. Both had 9 patents listed plus the Des #.

Three B23 labels are showing up on AE50 sets but none on my sets so far. One was reported to me by CRPF "Argee". I will see if he is still active and try PMing or emailing him. Others were eBay recorded sets. Two L5102 sets and one L5100

The single C21 label I saw was on an eBay AE 43 set and had a Chicago-7 label. That's all I have on it.

Lots more of my phones to go through to record info still. I know this info above is of no use to you Unbeldi but just letting you know what I have seen. Stub can help with that 47 set of his.

Terry

« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 09:36:26 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2017, 05:09:30 PM »
Here is the A46 label supplied by Stub from his AE L4111 47 set.

Terry

unbeldi

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2017, 05:16:24 PM »
Here is the A46 label supplied by Stub from his AE L4111 47 set.

Already added the info to my database.
The label is identical to the A41 label, with the exception of the addition of the patent for the multi-line set.
US2589180 1952 1949 Wood etal AEL--Multiline Telephone Substation Instrument and Circuit

[PS: old table image removed, see newer post with update.]
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 12:37:49 PM by unbeldi »

unbeldi

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 06:29:22 PM »
I find it somewhat interesting that AE would create these decals, starting with ľA1, during the war.
Just like WECo, AE must have been under order to not produce telephones starting in 1942, at least not for civilian use.
WECo was allowed to start manufacturing again in limited numbers by end of 1944 or so, so I am assuming that AE was treated similarly.
Perhaps these decals were not actually created until 1944 or even later.  I also have no patent assignment for 1943 to 1945 that one could expect on labels. There are applications, for example several handset locking mechanisms that I think was used on ships for wall sets.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 09:15:28 AM by unbeldi »

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 07:07:41 PM »
Just like WECo, AE must have been under order to not produce telephones starting in 1942, at least not for civilian use.

Depends how you look at it I suppose. Civilian manufacturing continued but the equipment was exported.

Jack

unbeldi

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 08:26:42 PM »
Depends how you look at it I suppose. Civilian manufacturing continued but the equipment was exported.

Jack
I don't think so.  The war need was probably very small compared to the normal production and might have been filled in a few months time.
By the time WECo was authorized again to produce telephones, they did not have the manufacturing capability to produce even a few ten thousand sets that were authorized, and had to purchase a factory to restart manufacturing. The equipment from that factory was later moved back to Hawthorn once space was made available once again.

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 09:05:00 PM »
I don't think so.  The war need was probably very small compared to the normal production and might have been filled in a few months time.
By the time WECo was authorized again to produce telephones, they did not have the manufacturing capability to produce even a few ten thousand sets that were authorized, and had to purchase a factory to restart manufacturing. The equipment from that factory was later moved back to Hawthorn once space was made available once again.

Yes, it certainly slowed significantly but it did not stop so some capability remained or was easy to convert from other production.

The point I was making, even though minor, was that production did continue and there are WE telephones with all dates during (US) WW2. It is more difficult to tell if AE continued to make telephones during WW2 because of a lack of dates. It is possible though by the change in some materials.

Regards
Jack

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2017, 12:05:34 AM »
Moved the posts about transmitter/receiver codes, and RFI Suppressor dials to the "other" topic where they should have been.

Starts here:
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=17379.msg180100#msg180100

Terry

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Re: Automatic Electric Co Type 40, 50, etc Patent Label reference
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2017, 01:21:11 PM »
I've thought that AE was at least making dials during WW2.  As I understand it, WE's 4H and 5H dials didn't meet military standards and WE 302 phones with AE dials were used by the military.