Author Topic: What did I just buy? Name this phone.  (Read 914 times)

Offline TelePlay

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7053
  • Available by PM
    • . . . the times they been a'changing
What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« on: January 18, 2017, 01:53:09 AM »
It only had 3 blurry photos on eBay but with a metal housing, 4 rivet ringer mount and chrome AE dial, it made me want to look under the hood. It arrived today.

Matching date early 1939 base (ringer - 3/39; coil I-39; base 3/39) but a newer 1952 F1W handset. AE dial is in good condition but coming in at 11.4 pps, it needs to be tightened down a bit. Clean inside but the handset is going to be a challenge and the original paint may or  may not clean up well.

So, what is it? A frankenphone, a factory refurb, a really old N.E. 302 that might be a bit rare or just another 302?
            John . . .

              

Offline LarryInMichigan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4822
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2017, 07:30:42 AM »
My guess is that this 302 was sold to an independent telco who added the AE dial and later replaced the handset with a refurbished one.  The paint will likely look good after a good cleaning and polishing, and possibly some touchup with a paint marker around the ears.  The handset should come out looking much nicer after the paint has been stripped and the bakelite polished.

Larry

Offline poplar1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5870
  • 102C-6 = "Old Brass" Hand Telephone Set
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2017, 09:38:49 AM »
I don't see anything Northern Electric. Rather, it appears to be a 1939 Western Electric 302 with a 1952 non-Bell Western Electric F1W handset and an AE dial.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Ktownphoneco

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 683
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2017, 10:04:38 AM »
I agree with poplar1.      Nothing Northern in the set that I can see.     I suspect someone other than a telco installed the A.E. dial, based on the way in which the dial has been fastened to the upper housing.      I rather doubt any telephone company would use what appear to be counter sunk brass screws and flat washers to mount a dial to the housing.     Even an independent that used A.E. dials in their equipment, would have the correct screws on hand.      I also doubt a set of that age, would be available for purchase by a telco outside the Bell System.

Jeff Lamb
 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 10:08:18 AM by Ktownphoneco »

Offline poplar1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5870
  • 102C-6 = "Old Brass" Hand Telephone Set
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2017, 10:41:46 AM »
I also doubt a set of that age, would be available for purchase by a telco outside the Bell System.

The Western Electric catalogs and Graybar catalogs were for the independents, not for Bell. On 302s, the non-Bell handsets were marked F1W (w="without Bell markings") while the Bell handsets were marked F1 as well as "Bell System."

After the consent decree of 1956, WE  equipment was sold mostly  either to the Bell operating companies or to the US Government, but in 1939 they were definitely sold to independents, as shown in the 1939 WE/Graybar catalog #10.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Ktownphoneco

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 683
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2017, 11:01:29 AM »
You may be absolutely correct, but in order to prove that theory, one would need to know the date in 1939 that Graybar/Western, or Western/Graybar catalog No. 10 was printed and then compared to the latest date stamp on the set itself.    The dial, make, type and mounting method without a rubber gasket and brass grommets, plus the date on the F1W handset tell me that the set, on  the scale of probabilities, has seen the hands of someone else other than a telephone company technician.

Jeff

Offline poplar1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5870
  • 102C-6 = "Old Brass" Hand Telephone Set
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2017, 11:33:04 AM »
I certainly agree that this phone was assembled by a non-phone company "refurbisher" or reseller, akin to a "chop shop." AE did make a dial with pileup with both normally open and normally closed shunt contacts, for use with a WE phone, but this is not that. And there is no dial adapter (gasket) and, as you pointed out, the wrong kind of screws. (I'm surprised that they even used 3 screws rather than 2 to mount the dial.)

"W" part numbers are shown in the earlier WE/Graybar catalogs as well, such as the 329W transmitter. So, I don't think one could make the case that 302s were intended only for Bell, whether in 1938 or 1939 or 1950. At Hallmark House, we refurbished quite a few 302s made in 1938, which we bought from an independent operating company in Warwick, NY. http://puck.nether.net/npa-nxx/test2.cgi?clli=WRWKNYXADS0

I realize that Bell Canada did not use Uniphones, but I don't know whether NE sold 302s to independents. I would imagine they did sell both models to independents. But WE sold the 302 to both the Bell and independent markets, the difference being the Bell markings on the F1A handset, compared to the F1AW for independents.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Ktownphoneco

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 683
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2017, 12:20:53 PM »
Ok.    You have the personal experience to fortify that statement, which convinces me that Western, through it's Graybar subsidiary, sold Western made equipment to independents.    I knew the handsets were specifically marked for sale to non Bell System companies, but were the case / housings, or any other internal parts marked differently or stamped differently ?

Regarding Northern :  The "T" series catalogs were, to the best of my knowledge, printed for independent telephone companies.    The first Western patented 302 first appears in the T-8 catalog of 1954.        The T-7 catalog of 1947, does not show any 302's.
The F-1 handset first appears in the T-7 catalog, and Northern uses type codes such as F1A-3; F2A-3; FN1A-3; FN2A-3; Fn2C-3 and MD-2509 used with coin collectors.     The transmitters and receivers in all versions, use the normal Western type designation, F1 and HA1 respectively.      I'm assuming those type numbers for the aforementioned handsets are marked as such for sale to independents.

Jeff

Offline TelePlay

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7053
  • Available by PM
    • . . . the times they been a'changing
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2017, 02:01:30 PM »
Thanks for the replies. Makes sense and seems to be a WE 302 with added dial and handset replacement.

Here are the photos of the handset. It was the cap with the 2-53 not the handset. Mark on the handset receiver is hard to read but most likely 50. The wires from transmitter to receiver are the newer plastic coated woven insulation where the handset cord may be original with the rubber clad wires. The emblem is a bit hard to read but it's all there.

The receiver is a 7/52 but the F1 transmitter is a 4/41. Quite a mix of parts there. One thing new to me is the copper colored metal holding the transmitter together. Were these common? The color in the close up (right most image) is accurate.
            John . . .

              

Offline Babybearjs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2054
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2017, 10:49:50 PM »
heres what I see..... another 302 that someone had and it probably had a app blank.....so at sometime in the past....someone found a AE dial and put it in..... not knowing that it was the wrong style of dial, or it was all they had..... how that for an answer......
John

Offline TelePlay

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7053
  • Available by PM
    • . . . the times they been a'changing
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2017, 04:26:38 AM »
heres what I see..... another 302 that someone had and it probably had a app blank.....so at sometime in the past....someone found a AE dial and put it in..... not knowing that it was the wrong style of dial, or it was all they had..... how that for an answer......

I think that pretty well sums up the consensus of those who know better than I. So, it's going to be what I initially decided to buy it for, the chrome AE dial for my Ashtray (came with a dial blank) and I can then restore the '39 302 base and housing to something close to a '39 WE 302 telephone.

Based on the eBay photos and descriptions, I had no idea of what it would be until received and then didn't know of this was something rare or as it turned out to be, a bit of a frankenphone. Still a good price for what I got so I'm happy.
            John . . .

              

Offline Pourme

  • One Ringy Dingy, Two Ringy Dingys...
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1801
  • Benny's Fatboy
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2017, 06:49:42 AM »
Being purchased by John is the best thing that ever happened to that 302...
Benny

The Internet is a telephone system that's gotten uppity

unbeldi

  • Guest
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2017, 05:48:24 PM »
Ok.    You have the personal experience to fortify that statement, which convinces me that Western, through it's Graybar subsidiary, sold Western made equipment to independents.
Graybar was not a subsidiary of Western Electric. WECo divested itself completely in 1925 from Graybar upon creation. A few years later Graybar became an employee-owned company.


Quote
I knew the handsets were specifically marked for sale to non Bell System companies, but were the case / housings, or any other internal parts marked differently or stamped differently ?
Some were, others weren't, it doesn't appear there was a rule that can be followed, follow the catalog. Only rule is that parts for independent sales never carried the Bell System logo. 302 sets were never stamped at the factory with order numbers at all, AFAIK. Many parts that normally (for the Bell System) had date stamps, often had no such stamps for independent sales.  From my observation, that includes F1 and HA1 transducers in F1W handsets, and ringers.

Quote
Regarding Northern :  The "T" series catalogs were, to the best of my knowledge, printed for independent telephone companies.    The first Western patented 302 first appears in the T-8 catalog of 1954.        The T-7 catalog of 1947, does not show any 302's.
The F-1 handset first appears in the T-7 catalog, and Northern uses type codes such as F1A-3; F2A-3; FN1A-3; FN2A-3; Fn2C-3 and MD-2509 used with coin collectors.     The transmitters and receivers in all versions, use the normal Western type designation, F1 and HA1 respectively.      I'm assuming those type numbers for the aforementioned handsets are marked as such for sale to independents.

Jeff

Offline poplar1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5870
  • 102C-6 = "Old Brass" Hand Telephone Set
Re: What did I just buy? Name this phone.
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2017, 10:57:28 AM »
Many parts that normally (for the Bell System) had date stamps, often had no such stamps for independent sales.  From my observation, that includes F1 and HA1 transducers in F1W handsets, and ringers.


B1A ringers were not dated before 4-38. However, I don't recall seeing F1 transmitter units, HA1 receiver units, or post 4-38 ringers without dates, whether in Bell System or non-Bell 302s.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.