Author Topic: Announcement of Copper Retirement  (Read 2686 times)

Offline mariepr

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Announcement of Copper Retirement
« on: March 03, 2017, 11:16:18 PM »
The gradual migration from copper to fiber has reached my section of northern Manhattan.  Verizon is to retire copper service in my area by the end of February 2018.  It's my understanding that it's the cable serving the building that will be fiber but the copper wiring inside the building will still be used.  I'll also have to decide on a new internet service since DSL only works over copper and not over fiber. 

Verizon says that faxes and answering machines will continue to work as they did on copper.  Has anyone experience with how this affects rotary dialing and mechanical ringers?   My chances of finding somebody at the phone company who actually believes somebody still uses those are slim, fat, and none.

Offline andy1702

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2017, 03:31:44 AM »
Surely any changes to your service by the provider have to be backwards compatible, don't they?

If fax machines will still work then I imagine rotary phones will too. Back when faxes were a thing many of them were pulse dialling, so if it's been said they will work then I guess you should be ok.

The other option of course is to go the VOIP route and send your phone signal over the internet using the extra bandwidth yoh should get with fibre. There are various ways of connecting old phones up to this.
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Online twocvbloke

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2017, 05:01:26 AM »
The problem with rotary (or pushbutton pulse dial) is officially nobody these days actually "supports" it, it's just a legacy left over that would have cost more to remove from the exchange than it was to just leave it in place, and replacements such as ATAs for VoIP services don't always have pulse-dialling options available as they don't see it as a requirement in the 21st century...

Offline dsk

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2017, 10:38:25 AM »
The same happens here in Norway, so I have been looking for a voip provider and the number of those has been reduced considerably the last year, and lots of them, like Verizon do not want private customers, only companies.  I have good experience with the Callcentric, (Great service!) but they charge me far to much if I want to port my telephone number from Norway, probably because it actually cost them to much.  Not many companies lets me choose my own ATA, so I am not sure what I want, but I'm sure they do not let me play with impedance matching, dial tones and ring cadences.

On the other side it might have been smart to wait until only the strongest competitors remain, then I hopefully do not have to change provider to when they decide.

 :-\

dsk

Offline mariepr

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2017, 10:43:40 AM »
Well if I have to go VOIP - where legacy equipment won't work - it's not necessary for me to stay with Verizon because there won't be any advantage for me.  I can compare what the competing cable companies offer in New York. 

My first thought was to go with fiber/building copper voice for phone and add on a FIOS line for internet.  But from the anecdotal stories I've read Verizon won't allow the two to co-exist - the FIOS technician would rip the copper wires in the basement.

It might be fun to call customer service just to jerk their chain.  "What kind of legacy equipment?"  "Eight Western Electric telephones ranging from 1903 to 1933. Four of them with rotary dials.  Plus an electro-mechanical tea bell auxiliary ringer."
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 10:54:32 AM by mariepr »

unbeldi

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2017, 11:15:16 AM »
Are you living in your own house or in an apartment or condo building in Manhattan ?

The infrastructure for FiOS Internet access and Verizon voice-only over fiber isn't much different, I don't think, but the details depend on the type building and its existing wiring.  In older multi-tenant structures with existing copper wiring, Verizon will probably install large multiple-customer fiber terminal equipment for groups of residences in the existing wiring areas. IIRC, these are boxes of the size of about 3 feet by 2 or so. From there on, they use existing cabling, whether it is coax (CATV) or twisted pair (telephone).  Internet access is often provided with VDSL modems for data speeds to about 50 Mbit/s or VDSL2 beyond that. So, it looks pretty much the same from a practical point of view as other DSL services.
Verizon voice over this infrastructure comes to your residence in the same twisted pair as before, and from my experiences with a couple of installations it does support pulse dialing, but the specifications for pulse rate appear to be somewhat narrower, particularly on the lower bound than traditional POTS.  With a Sage 930A test set, I saw signaling errors when the pulse rate dropped below 9 pulses per second, but on the high end it was ok up to about 15 pps.  My notes state that I used break ratios successfully between 40% and 66%.  These numbers probably vary somewhat with each installation, depending on the quality of inside wiring.  My test number for the measurements was 1-800-CALL-ATT.

In single-family houses, they usually bring fiber into the house to a convenient location and install a single customer OTN unit, which has all required interfaces, twisted pair, Ethernet, and coax, ready to connect to existing wiring in the house.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 11:33:23 AM by unbeldi »

Offline andy1702

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2017, 03:33:08 AM »

It might be fun to call customer service just to jerk their chain.  "What kind of legacy equipment?"  "Eight Western Electric telephones ranging from 1903 to 1933. Four of them with rotary dials.  Plus an electro-mechanical tea bell auxiliary ringer."

I don't think that is jerking their chain. It's actually a legitimate enquiry. You're a customer who happens to use older equipment. This equipment has worked ok for many years and you want to carry on using it. They should be required to maintain their service.

If they don't maintain their service it's a bit like if oil companies suddenly put something in gasoline which required you to go and buy a new car.

Personally I'm future-proofed anyway because everything is behind a PABX which puts out tones to the outside world. This is also connected to C*net VOIP lines which work so well I use C*net wherever possible.
Call me on C*net 0246 81 290 from the UK
or (+44) 246 81 290 from the rest of the world.

For telephone videos search Andys Shed on Youtube.

Offline mariepr

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2017, 12:58:48 AM »
Are you living in your own house or in an apartment or condo building in Manhattan ?.....

I thought I posted a reply last night but I don't see it here.  Anyway, I live in a coop apartment so preparing the basement utility room for the fiber transition is the building management's headache.  I've already contacted the property manager and asked where they are on this. 

My letter from Verizon states that the voice service will work the same way it's just that DSL cannot be sent over fiber.  So I'm thinking of going with fiber from the CO/copper building wiring for voice.  For internet I might go with FIOS internet but most definitely NOT the FIOS voice.  That's all digital and legacy equipment won't work on that. 

When reading through there site I found an interesting piece of information regarding FIOS voice.  What should one do if there's no dial tone on the digital phone?  The answer?  Check that it's plugged into AC, and/or check that the battery is charged!  How ironic that their most advanced voice service is.....Local Battery!

Offline mariepr

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2017, 01:04:56 AM »
I don't think that is jerking their chain. It's actually a legitimate enquiry. You're a customer who happens to use older equipment. This equipment has worked ok for many years and you want to carry on using it. They should be required to maintain their service.

If they don't maintain their service it's a bit like if oil companies suddenly put something in gasoline which required you to go and buy a new car.

Personally I'm future-proofed anyway because everything is behind a PABX which puts out tones to the outside world. This is also connected to C*net VOIP lines which work so well I use C*net wherever possible.

Well, if there would be no way my legacy phones would work there would be no advantage for me to stay with Verizon.  The problem with going with a cable company is that there are no internet only packages, just television/internet bundles.  Fortunately I don't have to do anything next week or next month.  It's good to have knowledge of the options. 

Offline compubit

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2017, 08:21:37 AM »
Well, if there would be no way my legacy phones would work there would be no advantage for me to stay with Verizon.  The problem with going with a cable company is that there are no internet only packages, just television/internet bundles.  Fortunately I don't have to do anything next week or next month.  It's good to have knowledge of the options.

Marie - check with the cable company. I'm pretty sure that they have Internet-only service - they just don't advertise it.  With all of the various programming options, I fully can see a time when the cable company offers internet with a TV add-on, vs. the other way around...  Though you may want to check if they have an Internet + (extremely) basic cable package. For me, the Internet service at my level (50 Mbps) itself is $79/month.  The same level of Internet + basic cable (local channels + a few others) is $69/month.  Go figure...

Jim
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unbeldi

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2017, 08:51:00 AM »
I thought I posted a reply last night but I don't see it here.  Anyway, I live in a coop apartment so preparing the basement utility room for the fiber transition is the building management's headache.  I've already contacted the property manager and asked where they are on this. 

My letter from Verizon states that the voice service will work the same way it's just that DSL cannot be sent over fiber.  So I'm thinking of going with fiber from the CO/copper building wiring for voice.  For internet I might go with FIOS internet but most definitely NOT the FIOS voice.  That's all digital and legacy equipment won't work on that. 

When reading through there site I found an interesting piece of information regarding FIOS voice.  What should one do if there's no dial tone on the digital phone?  The answer?  Check that it's plugged into AC, and/or check that the battery is charged!  How ironic that their most advanced voice service is.....Local Battery!

I don't understand the contradiction that you create in this post.  Verizon states, just as I have described earlier, that telephone service will work just like before.  Do you not believe Verizon ? That is an accurate statement, there is nothing digital about it from the subscriber's point of view. It is a twisted pair with dial tone just like before, but it comes from the embedded telephone adapter in the FiOS equipment, and not directly from a remote central office. For all practical purposes, the customer doesn't know the service is based on fiber.  However, as I mentioned, if you are using rotary phones, some will likely fail dialing, while others will continue to work fine.

If you are subscribing to DSL Internet access now from a third party—does anyone do that anymore ?—then indeed that won't work anymore, you have to get the service from Verizon, and it will likely still be delivered by DSL,  VDSL that is, from the basement to your apartment.

If you opt for a cable company, then Internet access, voice, and TV are delivered by coax into your apartment to a CPE that has an Ethernet jack, an RJ11 jack and a TV coax jack.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 08:58:29 AM by unbeldi »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2017, 12:11:01 PM »
I agree with Unbeldi. Just like if you received dial tone from a cable company, the signal is delivered to the basement of a multi tenant building or to your apartment in some sort of digital format and then converted to a two conductor copper circuit to feed your apartment phones. The service may be slightly different in that it might not be as tolerant of dial speed though it could just as easily be more tolerant but it will basically work the same way. If it doesn't accept dial pulses that is only because they have designed or programmed it to work that way.

Delivering Internet to your apartment creates another challenge for them as they likely aren't going to run fiber or Cat 5 cable throughout your building to each apartment. So they need something similar to ADSL with a modem on each end to deliver the data signal over the existing copper pair or coax cable from the basement to your apartment.

They aren't going to spend all that money on fiber installation to your building and then say we're sorry, we can't provide you internet access any longer, we are more than happy with the small revenue from just your phone line so here is the phone number for our competitors for Internet.

Terry
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 12:13:47 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2017, 12:28:25 PM »
In my area, Verizon has turned over the operations of all copper lines to the Frontier company. I think based in Florida ?

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Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2017, 12:38:36 PM »
Yes rather than spending all the money for fiber conversion in all their exing territory, they sold off many areas such as yours to bring in cash to fund the fiber conversion in the areas that they kept.

Terry

Offline dsk

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2017, 01:10:45 PM »
What's happening here is a fiber cable all the way in to our living room. ( I insisted to stop in a closet) where they puts in boxes for TV Phone and internet, all powered on my electricity bill, and everything will go down when we get a power-out! The IP telephone are at least 35% off compared to POTS.

They will not rip out the copper wires, and I may still keep the POTS line for whatever it costs.

dsk