Author Topic: Announcement of Copper Retirement  (Read 2587 times)

Offline Stan S

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2017, 10:21:33 AM »
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Unless I'm willing to give up internet there is no way I'm going to be able to keep telephone service that worked just like it did before.
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Marie

May I make a suggestion. Assuming you can get some sort of Internet service through your cable company or by piggy backing on a neighbors WiFi (with their permission of course) get Vonage for your phone service.

I have one pots line (with no long distance service) and two Vonage numbers. Vonage works perfectly with rotary dialing. I use the second Vonage line to call the first to test the incoming call detectors in the payphones I build for Ebay. Not knowing the telephone service provider of the person that's going to end up with what I build, I prefer to use Vonage to test the rotary phones because the specs on the ATA they provide are much tighter than the pots line. The only reason I still have pots is for emergencies. If it goes in the future no great loss.

You might also try getting the most inexpensive cell service you can find and using an Xlink. Plug all your rotary phones into the Xlink. They will work perfectly.

Stan S.


Offline Jim S.

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2017, 11:11:08 AM »

I am sure some people felt sad when they had to give up cranking the magneto generator, and talk to the operator when making a phone call, but that too was perceived by the vast majority of users as progress.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zjlLb0tqGs
About 1:15 in.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 11:18:55 AM by Jim S. »
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Offline mariepr

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2017, 09:49:53 PM »
That is the essence of the fiber transition, to retire the old copper plant. It is not only inefficient to maintain two or three separate networks, but the public wants converged services that are better and enhance a modern lifestyle. The use of land lines has been plummeting for years, the customers don't want them, and neither do the providers.

You probably won't even notice the difference between FiOS Voice and the old POTS, with the exception that only the well tuned rotary dials continue to operate, as the margin for dial speed appears to be just a bit narrower on the slow side than previously.  In addition, you get caller*id on your television, you can watch TV on the tablet computer and smart phone, use your smart phone as a remote control, manage your voice messages online.

I am sure some people felt sad when they had to give up cranking the magneto generator, and talk to the operator when making a phone call, but that too was perceived by the vast majority of users as progress.

But isn't that precisely what we do in this hobby?  Collect obsolete telephone equipment?  And some of us actually try to use it and make modifications the engineers never imagined?  What's so wrong about wanting Verizon to keep their stated promise to deliver, "existing voice service, only provided over fiber instead of copper... Any devices that rely on your current voice service...will continue to work in the same way as they did over copper"?  And not get baited and switched to a digital service where none of the above will work?

(Now if I can figure out how to get Rotatone to work in my A1 with the 2GB dial all will be well with my world...but my rotary Princess is a lost cause unless the bell is removed to make room for the module.)

unbeldi

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2017, 10:38:16 PM »
But isn't that precisely what we do in this hobby?  Collect obsolete telephone equipment?
But that does not mean time should stand still around the collecting hobby.  Do you want to hold the world hostage with obsolete technology?  I would say most collectors never use even 1% of all phones they hoard. We collect magneto phones, local battery phones, CBS-LBS phones, and many other types that are inoperable with even the network 30 or 40 years ago.

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And some of us actually try to use it and make modifications the engineers never imagined?  What's so wrong about wanting Verizon to keep their stated promise to deliver, "existing voice service, only provided over fiber instead of copper...
But they do exactly that. They provide a telephone service that still is virtually identical in function to POTS from your perspective. It's even amazing that FiOS still supports pulse dialing, the reason for that is archaic, and may only rest with the obsolete legal infrastructure at the FCC for incumbent carriers, but perhaps it is just a curtesy grounded in the incumbent history of a telephone company. I don't know the details of rulings for that aspect either. Cable operators don't universally support it, and other Internet telephony service providers (ITSPs) don't even think about it.

Virtual all short- and long-haul transmission has already been replaced with fiber, that started 30 years ago.  Now fiber is moving another step closer to the home.

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Any devices that rely on your current voice service...will continue to work in the same way as they did over copper"?  And not get baited and switched to a digital service where none of the above will work?
What is digital voice? Voice has been digital since 1965 with the first ESS.  Virtually all short- and long-haul transmission has been already replaced by fiber, starting 30 years ago. It's all digital.  I don't how many miles of free wire analog transmission (not local loops) still remains, probably only in some rural, remote, and desert areas.

baited and switched to a digital service ?   Why this negative and poorly informed accusation ?  Fiber replacement of copper wire means exactly what it sounds like.  Is FiOS Voice or cable company voice, or VoIP in general not well documented ?  For someone interested in telephony and collecting of equipment it should not be so hard to understand what this means.

The TV industry made this a lot less painful, they set a date to turn off analog transmission, and now five years or so later, one can't even buy an analog television set anymore.  I hear no one complaining.  And television quality has never been better.


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(Now if I can figure out how to get Rotatone to work in my A1 with the 2GB dial all will be well with my world...but my rotary Princess is a lost cause unless the bell is removed to make room for the module.)
Buy yourself an old Panasonic PBX for $30 and you have your own 1980s-style local telephone network and have to convert no phones at all.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 10:41:53 PM by unbeldi »

Offline mariepr

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2017, 09:19:32 AM »
Well that is certainly disappointing.  I'm now being mocked as a Luddite for simply wanting my needs met.  The more research I do to find out what my options are - as the copper CO cable is going to die sooner rather than later - the more I'm told here "can use two companies", "you're confusing everything", and now I'm "stuck in the past".

My understanding is that my voice service is supposed to be converted from copper to fiber, not FiOS. FiOS is a set of services that run on top of fiber, but not all services on fiber are FiOS.  Since Verizon's advertising doesn't distinguish between FiOS and fiber, this confuses many people.

Verizon uses fiber optics to deliver two very different phone services. Am I wrong on this?  One is the government regulated, tariffed service know as "standard phone service," or POTS (plain old telephone service). It has all the same features (or lack of features) as a copper phone line. Pricing is the same as any other copper line. The only difference is potentially better quality due to the use of fiber and the need for power and a battery on the local premises.  The other is FiOS Digital Voice (or "FDV"), an unregulated, VoIP based service. It has many more features than POTs.  It's the former that I want, not the later. 

I never expected to be put on the defense just for wanting Verizon to do what they are claiming they will do - maintain my traditional phone service just over fiber instead of copper.  Now that I've yet again stated - but apparently unsuccessfully - where I stand on this issue can this topic now be closed?  I'm really very, very sorry that I start it as I lose more credibility with each post. 

unbeldi

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2017, 11:07:01 AM »
I believe you are referring to the difference between Freedom Essential Voice (?)  and FiOS Digital Voice.  The former was (still is?) the replacement of copper telephone service with fiber service, the latter is the voice portion that is typically provides as a component of their triple-play service.  The difference between them is their relation to tariffed services and regulation, and the resulting difference in marketing.   The Essential Voice is tariffed just like POTS, I believe, while FiOS Digital Voice is the  less regulated service comparable to some cable offerings, which is cheaper because it does not have pay for E911 services and other requirements, I believe.

But both use the same voice technology.  They operate over the same fiber, and are both equally based on the evolving versions of Passive Optical Network (PON) technology.
Naturally, they use different marketing strategies, and the use of the FiOS mark seems to be restricted to the less-regulated service.   I don't know whether one can mix the two services on an order, that is something to ask the company.   Frankly, I don't see why one would want to separate them.  E911 is available either way.

What I objected to in your statements was the attitude that they are deceiving you somehow.  Surely, it is a bit difficult at times to see through all the advertising and hype. But all providers are competing in the same manner more or less, and it seems to benefit them in general to confuse the customer.

Offline mariepr

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2017, 01:12:56 AM »
The saga continues.  Today there was a robocall from Verizon which told me to make an appointment for fiber migration by May 30th.   I had asked my building superintendent where do we stand on the FIOS availibility?  (He should know as he has to let the workers in, what work they are doing, and where.)   He told me it's already installed!  Called Verizon - my building is still showing up as not "eligible" and therefore the order cannot be placed.

Long story short, Verizon is supposed to "refer" the problem and get back to me next week.  And you wonder why I'm skeptical on how they're handling this?  The cable company has an even worse reputation, especially when it comes to no-show installer appointments. 

Offline mariepr

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2017, 12:24:05 AM »
Rather than write an ongoing drama, I decided to wait until the copper to fiber migration was finished and done.  In my case it was phone and internet, no TV.  The installation was done today and so far, it looks OK.  Surprisingly my A1 and Princess rotaries dial out but the Rotatone phone - working perfectly on POTS - doesn't break dial tone.  The fiber is also putting out enough ringer current to ring the 302 base, Princess, and wood auxiliary.  Tomorrow might be a different story.

I've really appreciated the suggestions from those who offered specific solutions for how to keep rotary service after the death of copper POTS.   I didn't appreciate having comparisons made to the Luddite who wanted to maintain manual as the phone company switched to dial.  Key difference:  manual to rotary conversion didn't cost subscribers a nickel.  However copper to fiber cost some of us plenty.

The local phone company then took care of everything by changing out to dial phones (they were all leased then) and even held educational seminars in local schools.  (Several of these films are now on youtube.)  By contrast Verizon - supposedly a communication company - is doing a very poor job in communicating what happens and needs to be ready for a fiber conversion.  The cost to me for an electrician and structured media is well over $1000 plus my labor and work to figure out how connect my existing wiring 25ft away and past a structural beam.  For those of you who might ask, "I don't see how or why this could possibly be so much money and work" of course you don't see it.  You live in a house where fiber can be brought in through a basement or utility room.  It's not being run right at your apartment front living room door. 

The only way to avoid wiring an apartment is to have only cell phones, broadcast TV, and no internet or perhaps just a wireless hotspot.   It's either run Cat5e for the phone company or coax for the cable company. 

As the old saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words.  So below I'll illustrate what it took to bring DSL internet over copper and what it now takes to bring phone and internet over fiber.  Please note also the size of the DSL router and Fios router relative to a dollar bill. 

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2017, 12:37:46 AM »
Who punched down the 4 pair cable (left side of the dollar bill) onto the 110 IDC connectors? They either didn't have/use the proper tool or didn't know how to work it. That means they could have been punched in with a screwdriver or something similar and ultimately the connections will likely fail.

Terry

Offline mariepr

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2017, 12:51:04 AM »
Me.  With a 110 punch.

When one is used to working in 1930 adjustment to an eighty year leap in technology takes some time and practice.

Aren't you glad that you asked?

Offline jsowers

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2017, 02:05:00 PM »
Marie, please take the blade out of your 110 punch tool and re-insert it with the cutting side out, if you can, and use the cutting blade part to the left and punch those wires down again so the excess wire is trimmed off. You'll be glad you did. Most punchdown tools have a two-ended punch that twist-locks into the handgrip. I'm hoping that's what you have. You can also adjust the force of the punch high and low to get more oomph out of it.

I'm glad you got things going and that it works with your existing rotary phones. That's very good news. I am also someone who uses my phone collection because they are vastly superior to anything made today, and most of them date to the 1950s and 60s. I'm lucky to have an independent telco provider that isn't trying to yank out the copper--yet. They also provide very good cable TV and internet, so I am trice blessed.
Jonathan

Offline mariepr

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2017, 07:34:53 PM »
Thanks but my tool is just a punch - no cutter.  I do however use a pair of snippers to cut the ends.  Since I don't intend to get into this business I didn't care to invest in expensive tools or specialized testing equipment.  There is no reason to resort to using screwdriver as Leviton does provide a small plastic punch along with their boards.  There seems to be a need to get a "feel" for the right amount of pressure.  Too little and the insulation doesn't pierce.  Too much and one can break something especially on the ends for the white/blue and solid brown wires. 

Matching wire gauge is critical.  Use something finer than what the board was designed for and the insulation isn't pierced.  The Verizon tech brings one of those plastic spade/modular boxes.  In general the old phone wiring goes on the spades, modular plug into the ONT.  The wire in that modular cord however is too thin to get punched into the data board as the telephone distribution part was designed for Cat3 wire or better.  Thus he had to recycle my cat3 piece that was attached to one of those spade terminal -to modular plugs.  (I have often found that some of the cheap modular/modular cords not only have just two wires, but also that the wires are of the tinsel type.)

The lack of specialized test equipment meant that the only way to know if the new cabling was working was to hook up my old DSL modem to it.  I left plenty of excess cable there as I didn't know exactly how the new equipment was to be placed in the media cabinet.   I might try to more the phone/data board to the upper right side of the cabinet and do a more permanent punch down without all that excess cable.   Too much cable is an easily solved problem. 

Alex G. Bell

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2017, 12:55:50 PM »
Matching wire gauge is critical.  Use something finer than what the board was designed for and the insulation isn't pierced.  The Verizon tech brings one of those plastic spade/modular boxes.  In general the old phone wiring goes on the spades, modular plug into the ONT.  The wire in that modular cord however is too thin to get punched into the data board as the telephone distribution part was designed for Cat3 wire or better.  Thus he had to recycle my cat3 piece that was attached to one of those spade terminal -to modular plugs.  (I have often found that some of the cheap modular/modular cords not only have just two wires, but also that the wires are of the tinsel type.)
Most modular cords are either 28AWG stranded or tinsel, neither of which can be successfully punched down into 110 terminals which are intended for 24AWG solid wire (only).  Since the gap in a 110 terminal is fixed (unlike a 66 terminal), there is no tolerance for different wire sizes. 

The modular plugs installed on stranded or tinsel cords are also intended only for this type of conductor, having 2 contact points in a row which pierce the conductor insulation when the plug is crimped.  The don't work reliably on solid conductor wire of any gauge because the conductor does not yield to the pressure of the contact points when the plug is crimped.

However modular plugs intended for use on solid wire do exist.  Instead of two in-line contact points they have 3 points with the center point offset so that the two end points straddle one side of a solid conductor while the center one straddles the other side without deforming or penetrating the strands the way contacts in stranded/tinsel wire plugs do.  The plugs sold under the Ideal name at places like Lowes and Home Depot are usually for solid wire.  Careful inspection is the only way to be sure.  Package marking is not always reliable.  IME it often does not specify and solid wire plugs do not work reliably on stranded or tinsel wire because it flexes too easily, rather than getting wedged between the alternating contact points.

So the best way to connect a modular-jack equipped equipment such as an ONT to 110 terminals would be to make up a short length of 24AWG solid conductor inside wire with a plug on one end and bare leads on the other.  Of course this requires having a 6-position modular plug crimping tool. 

AT&T, Hubbell and others also made "field installable plugs" intended to be assembled to solid conductor IW without any special tools but I don't know of any predictable source of these in small quantities.

The next best alternative is to install a modular jack near the 110 terminals, cross-connected with solid conductor IW to the 110 incoming line feed point, and use a double ended modular cord to patch the line from the ONT to the jack.

Offline mariepr

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2017, 10:15:11 PM »
Yes, it has been quite an education.  Somebody who doesn't have the resources available to me would have had to hire a tech worker to do all of their home wiring, not just to do the 110V AC work.  I have a relative whose installation in a house with a basement was simple.  Fiber was run through the exterior wall via the clothes drier vent - no additional wall penetration.  For internet they just set the router for wireless, which generally works fine unless the house is constructed like a bomb bunker.  Wifi capability is now common but that was not the case when DSL was first introduced.

In my experience wired internet is faster and more secure so I prefer to turn off wifi transmission and only turn it on when I need it.  Wifi in an apartment can also be iffy depending on the floor plan and density of the walls - like passing through a cinder block elevator shaft.

Fortunately I had spade to male RJ11 adapters as shown below.  They are available from Old Phone Shop ($10, screw on cover) or Old Phone Works ($3, friction cover).   I already had one with green/red wires from a Cat3 cable on it from my trial hookup, and the Verizon tech used this to connect my voice distribution to the ONT RJ11 female. 

Since many buildings in New York have old copper spiders, Verizon uses one of those plastic boxes with spades and use the that to plug into the ONT.

One thing that does not help is that the terms "fiber" and "Fios" are used interchangeably.  Transition from copper to fiber is voice telephone service.  Fios digital voice is an entirely different thing that includes integration with a PC and TV.   

They really, really want a customer to subscribe to TV service as that is more revenue: equipment rental and channel packages.  The installers asked me at least twice if I was sure that I didn't want TV.  After all this trouble to run Cat3 and Cat5e I'm sure not going to run coax just in case I might want a TV. 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 10:30:25 PM by mariepr »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Announcement of Copper Retirement
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2017, 10:42:33 PM »
Oh okay, no problem then. I have seen *"installers"* who didn't have 110 or BIX tools proudly proclaim " no problem, a screw driver works just fine". I call these guys installers as opposed to repairmen because they can usually get it working initially but they are never involved in the tricky repairs where the repairman has no idea who did what and with what (incorrect) tool.

Terry

Me.  With a 110 punch.

When one is used to working in 1930 adjustment to an eighty year leap in technology takes some time and practice.

Aren't you glad that you asked?