Author Topic: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone  (Read 3239 times)

Offline hydephone

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2017, 01:12:34 AM »
Here is the main problem I think.  I thik if I knew which pin to connect which loose wire to I could be in business.  This rounds plug goes into the round socket in the earlier photo.

The line from the wall only has red, green, yellow, and black, but I keep thinking I need all of them hooked up.


Offline hydephone

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2017, 01:40:40 AM »
Extra bonus pics to be thorough.

If I hadn't said so, the phone does not require a coin. Pick it up, hear a dial tone, dial, and talk.   
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 01:44:06 AM by hydephone »

Alex G. Bell

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2017, 02:04:30 AM »
Continuing.

Shot of the wire coming through the back of the phone.  This is the regular residential service.  If I plug another phone in there I get a dial tome.

Numbers on the card.

Backside of the board.
OK, based on recognizing the components it's a 1D, which is also marked in white ink on the top of the vault in regular_residential_service.jpg near where the D-sub plug from the coin sensor is lying.  It's probably marked elsewhere too, usually on the back which is not visible since it's mounted.

The 71A is the code for the upper housing assembly IIRC.  It's very hard to know which code markings refer to specific parts and which refer to an assembly of parts.  That's always a problem.  The 9-digit numbers are Comcodes which were useful only for ordering, in other words useless to us now.

It looks like the plug which has disconnected leads is the only 11-pin plug in a 1D, the one from the upper housing.  That wiring should be the same in a 1C or 1D.  I wonder why anyone removed the body/shell of the plug, which normally clamps the cable and prevent leads from tearing loose. 

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/10506-506-410-400-i6-aug80-coin-tel-sets-types-1a-2a-1c-2c-1e

506-410-400 Issue 6 page 92 shows the internal connections of a 1C2 type coin tel set config'd for DTF service.  The previous and subsequent figures show different combinations of dials and CF or DTF service wiring.  However I believe the wiring of the upper housing (coin cover assy) PLUG is the same for all these sets including your 1D regardless of the configuration.  You can confirm whether the leads which are still connected match what is shown in this diagram and if so feel confident the disconnected leads should be reconnected as shown in any of these diagrams.

Let us know how you make out.




Offline mentalstampede

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2017, 02:53:52 AM »
You may want to try to find a replacement for that whole cable assembly. With the rear section of the connector missing it is likely to be broken again. They're should be a protective cover to prevent damage to the solder joints and relieve cable strain that you don't appear to have. It also gives you something safe to grab when connecting or disconnecting the upper housing. I was going to open mine and see which color goes to which pin, but it seems to be glued together on mine.
My name is Kenn, and I like telephones.

“Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.” --Robert Heinlein

Offline hydephone

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2017, 12:01:10 PM »
I have the plastic handle/cover that goes over the plug. I took it off for the picture to show the unconnected wires.  The plug wasn't seated quite right in the bottom of the handle which led to the discovery of the loose wires.

I was afraid this was going to happen.  Page 92 of 506-410-400 obviously means something to somebody but it isn't real clear to me.  I have less of an idea what I'm looking at.

If I treat that as a table, then the 8th column from the left is J1/P1.  My plug has a J1 designation in the figures.  I think the
 -----< <-------
looks like a plug connection so we'll go with that.  I will assume the right edge of the diagram is the consumer and the left edge is the phone network.

Based on that, I am going to:

1.  Put my loose red wire on pin 2.  My socket is purple on the back side and not (G) but okay.  Lower confidence.

2.  Put my loose orange on pin 3.  (O) on both sides of the diagram junction. Orange on the back side of my socket.  High degree of confidence.

3.  Put my loose yellow wire on pin 4.  My socket is red w/green on the back side and not (G-BK) but okay.  Lower confidence.
     
4.  Put my loose black wire on pin 10.  My socket is red on the back side and not (V) but okay.  Lower confidence.

5.  Put my white w/blue on pin 11.  The drawing has a (W-BL) and I have white w/blue wire. Yay! The back side of my socket is black and not (O-W) but okay.  Medium confidence. 

Plan is to slip heat shrink in place on the wires, solder the wires as above, but not do the heat shrink or attach the handle piece.  Go plug the front into the back and test to see if it works.  If it does, tidy up the connections with the heat shrink, put on the handle, maybe seat the plug with a drop of hot glue, and live life. 

If it doesn't work, time to think of a new plan. 

I'll report back either way. 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 12:07:04 PM by hydephone »

Alex G. Bell

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2017, 12:08:24 PM »
I have the plastic handle/cover that goes over the plug. I took it off for the picture to show the unconnected wires.  The plug wasn't seated quite right in the bottom of the handle which led to the discovery of the loose wires.

I was afraid this was going to happen.  Page 92 of 506-410-400 obviously means something to somebody but it isn't real clear to me.  I have less of an idea what I'm looking at.

If I treat that as a table, then the 8th column from the left is J1/P1.  My plug has a J1 designation in the figures.  I think the
 -----< <-------
looks like a plug connection so we'll go with that.  I will assume the right edge of the diagram is the consumer and the left edge is the phone network.

Based on that, I am going to:

1.  Put my loose red wire on pin 2.  My socket is purple on the back side and not (G) but okay.  Lower confidence.

2.  Put my loose orange on pin 3.  (O) on both sides of the diagram junction. Orange on the back side of my socket.  High degree of confidence.

3.  Put my loose yellow wire on pin 4.  My socket is red w/green on the back side and not (G-BK) but okay.  Lower confidence.
     
4.  Put my loose black wire on pin 10.  My socket is red on the back side and not (V) but okay.  Lower confidence.

5.  Put my white w/blue on pin 11.  The drawing has a (W-BL) and I have white w/blue wire. Yay! The back side of my socket is black and not (O-W) but okay.  Medium confidence. 

Plan is to slip heat shrink in place on the wires, solder the wires as above, but not do the heat shrink or attach the handle piece.  Go plug the front into the back and test to see if it works.  If it does, tidy up the connections with the heat shrink, put on the handle, maybe seat the plug with a drop of hot glue, and live life. 

If it doesn't work, time to think of a new plan. 

I'll report back either way.
I'll review your list later today or tomorrow against the diagram and let you know whether I think you understand it correctly.  I suggest waiting until I have done that before making any connections.  However if the leads that are still connected match your interpretation of the diagram it's highly likely you understand it correctly.

The wire colors on the plug side do not necessarily match those on the socket side.  There may be historical reasons why they don't.  What matters is that the plug leads which are still connected match what's shown on the diagram for the plug.

Offline hydephone

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2017, 12:19:08 PM »
Quote
506-410-400 Issue 6 page 92 shows the internal connections of a 1C2 type coin tel set config'd for DTF service.  The previous and subsequent figures show different combinations of dials and CF or DTF service wiring.  However I believe the wiring of the upper housing (coin cover assy) PLUG is the same for all these sets including your 1D regardless of the configuration.

I think this says the wiring for the plug is the same regardless of what it is going into so don't worry so much about the socket side, which actually raises my level of confidence once I thought about it and reread it.

Thanks for all your help so far.

Alex G. Bell

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2017, 12:27:43 PM »
I think this says the wiring for the plug is the same regardless of what it is going into so don't worry so much about the socket side, which actually raises my level of confidence once I thought about it and reread it.

Thanks for all your help so far.
What you quoted does not really mean that.  It means that since the leads inside the plug are sealed in the shell they never change regardless of the type of service or type of dial.  Nevertheless your conclusion is correct, as I stated in my immediately previous message:

"The wire colors on the plug side do not necessarily match those on the socket side.  There may be historical reasons why they don't.  What matters is that the plug leads which are still connected match what's shown on the diagram for the plug."

I meant by this that matching lead colors prove you understand the diagram and that it is correct for the phone (though I'm quite sure there is no other diagram and no variation in wiring used inside the plug).

The only connections which ever change are spade tipped leads under screw terminals.  Soldered connections never change no matter where they are, especially sealed under the cap of a plug. 

Bell System telephone set installers did not carry soldering irons ever.  The earliest phones used screw terminal connections for anything which might need to be changed in the field.

You also wrote: "If it doesn't work, time to think of a new plan." to which I'd comment: "not necessarily".  Restoring the correct plug connections is necessary but may not be sufficient if there is some other problem which originally caused it to stop working.  So first you need to restore the wiring and then go back to seeing what it does and does not do and try to analyze any possible malfunctions with the plug wiring having been restored.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 12:34:29 PM by Alex G. Bell »

Offline hydephone

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2017, 11:44:40 AM »
There is no joy in Mudville.

Happily soldered up my wires, went over and plugged my plug in, no joy.  No tone. No nothing.  Disappointed, was hoping this would work.

Okay.

I have no telephone repair history, but basic electronics skills.  Are there trouble shooting steps I can take to further identify the problem?  The line is good up the site (verified by ATT).  When I plug another phone into the jack I get a dial tone.

   




Offline mentalstampede

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2017, 01:55:16 PM »
Try disconnecting the yellow and black line wires from the main terminal block. You only need to use Tip and Ring (the red and green wires) for standard service. I don't know if this is causing your problems, but it is possible.
My name is Kenn, and I like telephones.

“Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.” --Robert Heinlein

Offline Payphone installer

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2017, 08:38:39 PM »
I am amazed at this thread, if the dial plug has been destroyed  throw all of it away and get another dial. A true 1A telephone was CF which means coin first only. It operated off of a ground start central office line. So that means you had to satisfy the initial rate before you make the call that is where the totalizer came into play.

 Once you satisfy it,it will home and close the circuit that allows the tip ground to be applied the the line which in turn draws the dial tone.
 On a CF phone, tie the trigger back with a rubber band and the phone should work after the rate is satisfied.
On a DTF phone which can only be a 1C or a 1D never a 1A that I have seen, you should be able to draw dial tone as soon as you go off hook because that's how it worked as a standard telephone.
The only thing that prevented the phone from calling anywhere any time was the central office. The CO looked for a ground on the tip side after a number was dialed based on the number dialed, so the CO looked for the tip ground after the initial rate was satisfied which occurred after the digits were dialed this is called a wink. .
The TCI libary will not give you answers just staring at BSP's, you need to understand the relationship between the CO and the payphone. A 1C can be CF (coin first) or DTF (dial tone first) it depends on how it is wired. I think a 1D can only be DTF but can't remember.
The term that a payphone has been modified for home use is crazy because it worked as it was made if you understand how it was made and how it worked.
Any dumb set should work if the parts are wired for DTF or CF. The problem you get into is folks are matching up parts that are not wired correctly, like a CF wired dial in a DTF payphone. This is where the TCI library if complete may be of use.
 But you still have to know what dial pad you have which is 1A,1B or 1C. To sum this up do you have a 1A,1C or 1D and is your payphone CF or DTF or PP if so are all the parts wired correctly? If the parts have been chopped up throw them away and get a working part that is DTF or CF.
The major reason for the conversion  from CF to DTF was 911 it was all about eliminating fire and police call boxes and everything that it took to support them. It was also about the phone company selling 911 CO service to each and every county in the country and getting paid by way of telecom taxes.
 Marking on the parts and or housing are generally meaningless  as the repair folks swamped parts all day and as parts were refurbished they were not often marked or markings upgraded. I was a installer at Cincinnati Bell when we changed from CF to DTF, we wired the 1C parts up one at a time in the field unless they were 1A,if they were 1A out they came. We also removed black grommet handsets and plastic dial buttons. It was all very systematic and done in the field. Trying to sort this out with butchered parts with nothing to stare and compare to is a waste of time,you are better off focusing on getting working parts for your phone. I personally find the 1C way more interesting then the 1D and also the 1E and 1E1 the most fascinating of all.  The manual 1E1 is impossible to get. Good luck on your project.

Alex G. Bell

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2017, 11:26:10 PM »
Look at the photos.  The photos establish that it is a 1D.  1Ds are DTF only.  The first thing he needed to do was reconnect the broken dial leads.  Presumably the phone has the same upper housing as when it worked so the dial is probably wired correctly.  Systematic troubleshooting is required now that the dial plug is reconnected.  I'm not prepared to spend the time tonight.

Offline Payphone installer

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2017, 06:52:02 AM »
Repairman don't presume anything it is either wired for dial tone first or it's not,that is trouble shooting. I will be happy to send a working 1D dial in the box to this gentleman if he wishes to contact me simply so he can move forward with a working phone.i will even pay the shipping. The part is free trying to work with junk is painful to watch. Hydephone contact me and we will get your phone working. It may just require a whole new set of guts. Working guts.

Offline hydephone

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2017, 11:22:10 AM »
@payphone installer-   I appreciate that offer. If I understood one word of your 08:38:39 post, I might jump on it with both feet! LOL. As it is, I am still interested.  I have never installed phone guts and don't know how to do it. Let me work just a second with Mr Alex G Bell and see if there are any steps he can walk me through.  If we're unable to find the problem, new guts may be the way to go!

@Mr. Alex G- If you get a chance and if you've got an idea how to proceed, I'm all ears.

Alex G. Bell

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Re: Need help wiring a KS-21276 connector in pay phone
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2017, 01:30:09 PM »
@payphone installer-   I appreciate that offer. If I understood one word of your 08:38:39 post, I might jump on it with both feet! LOL. As it is, I am still interested.  I have never installed phone guts and don't know how to do it. Let me work just a second with Mr Alex G Bell and see if there are any steps he can walk me through.  If we're unable to find the problem, new guts may be the way to go!

@Mr. Alex G- If you get a chance and if you've got an idea how to proceed, I'm all ears.
Later today or tomorrow as time permits. 

Do you have any double ended alligator clip leads? 

Do you have a spare 11-pin plug like used on the upper housing?  They're used on plug in relays and other electronic devices and are commercially available.

Do you have a DMM?

I believe I have a document showing the correct connections of the spade tips inside the upper housing for a 1D2 CTS.  I need to find it.

In the meantime, as I understand it the problem right now is that when you connect it to a line and pick up the handset you don't hear anything.  That does not really prove it's completely dead.  The receiver circuit could be open and it might still be seizing the line and the transmitter and dial might still work.

You need to connect a second phone to the line, pick it up and dial a digit to clear dial tone, then pick up the payphone handset and see whether you hear a click in the 2nd phone when the handset is picked up on the payphone and whether you hear speech from the payphone and tones from the dial in the working 2nd phone. 

If you hear a click but no speech and/or tones from the dial reverse the line connections to the payphone and repeat the above talking and dialing attempts.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 01:38:14 PM by Alex G. Bell »