Author Topic: W.E. Dial Identification  (Read 15662 times)

Offline BOB BONCHAK

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W.E. Dial Identification
« on: October 12, 2008, 11:49:08 PM »
I have a W.E. Model 202, with an E1 handset.  The dial mechanism has no identification symbols on it.  How can I determine if it is a #2, #4, #5, #6, etc?  What are the differences in the various numbered dials?  TIA
BOB

Offline BDM

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2008, 11:52:48 PM »
Well, without getting technical, the #4 dial makes a loud clickity-clack sound when dialed. The #5 does also, but generally much quieter. If it's a #5 with a plastic cam, it may be almost soundless(ie no clickity-clack) when dialed. Also, remove the bottom cover. It's generally marked on the backside of the dial in red/orange ink. Others may be able to add to this.

Either or is correct. They received #5 when re-furbed. Most folks like myself, love the clickity-clack as it is ;D Otherwise, both dials are the same for the most part. No #6 dials were installed on D1 mounts to my knowledge, though that means little. I do believe #7 were used for the D1/202 Imperial sets on the mid/late 50s. That was a Ma Bell's attempt at using up parts, while trying to sell folks on style.

NOTE: Just dawned on me, a #7 wouldn't fit into a D1 mount. DUH! Just a number #6 with a plastic wheel. Man I'm getting slow at times!! ::)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 02:44:02 PM by BDM »

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Offline Mark Stevens

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2008, 10:53:24 AM »
Well, without getting technical, the #4 dial makes a loud clickity-clack sound when dialed. The #5 does also, but generally much quieter. If it's a #5 with a plastic cam, it may be almost soundless(ie no clickity-clack) when dialed.

I think you dial experts are like a secret society, keeping the truth about dial types a closely guarded secret.  Yea, I knew I could come up with a suitable conspiracy theory to justify my ignorance!  Imagine, expecting us to identify dials based on whether it goes clickety-click, clickety-clack, or clickety klunk!!!   :D ;D ;)

Offline BDM

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 02:41:52 PM »
Besides the markings on the back side, that's how I tell them apart. But, it does sound funny ;D Still the best way to tell a #2 or #4 apart from the rest.

--Brian--

St Clair Shores, MI

Offline Dennis Markham

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2008, 03:08:28 PM »
Just so you know what the marking on the back of the dial looks like, here is a photo of a #4H dial.  This dial is from a Western Electric 302 that I am refurbishing for someone.  I have never run across a 302 with a #4 before although I know they're out there.  This particular phone also has and E1 handset but a thermoplastic housing.  One would think that a 302 with an E1 and a #4 dial would be old enough to have a metal housing---pre WWII.  Perhaps it was refurbished in the field with the plastic housing.  This dial also has a 1146T on the top which I THINK means it was tested in November of 1946.  Maybe someone else knows for sure.  If you'd like to see a photo of a #5 dial including the cam that makes the clicking sound, let me know.  I post a photo of each.  The #5H dial has a small rubber tip on the end of the cam that ratchets against the main gear.  Thus it doesn't make the sound of the #4 or earlier dials.

Offline BDM

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2008, 03:24:24 PM »
If I remember correctly, the #5 also has the switched "W" connection opposite of the above photo. Just above the other four contact connections.

--Brian--

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Offline BOB BONCHAK

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2008, 11:20:08 PM »
OK.  Guess I have a #2 or #4 dial mechanism.  It definately has a loud "clikity-clack" sound as it returns to rest.  Last patent date is 3 21 engraved on the back.  No cover for the back.  All metal construction.  So, what is the difference between a #2 and #4? The dial mechanism is from a 202 (with E1 handset).  Only marking on the B1 base is "429", in red-orange.  TIA
BOB

Offline bingster

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2008, 11:24:40 PM »
2 has it's fingerstop mounted with two screws to the outside of the dial case, while 4 has it's fingerstop mounted inside the case, with a notch in the dial plate to accommodate it.

If I'm not mistaken, the "429" indicates the mounting was made in April, 1929.  I'm used to seeing Roman numerals inside to denote the quarter year, e.g. "III-37" for "third quarter, 1937," but then I've never seen inside a B1, and they may have done it differently that far back.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 11:26:13 PM by bingster »
= DARRIN =



Offline Dennis Markham

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2008, 11:35:37 PM »
This is a great web page about the #2 and #4 dials.  It explains the differences and a time-line.  Take a look.

http://atcaonline.com/phone/dials.htm

Many #2 dials were converted to #4 dials for use in the D1 base.  The D1 has a sunken dial and the finger stop of the #2 would not allow for the dial to be recessed into the base.  So the finger stop holes were welded closed and new holes were drilled for the "new" finger stop.  Those converted #2 dials are common.  That stock was used prior to the production of the #4 dial. 

The question was recently posed to the A.T.C.A. asking which dial was appropriate for the B1 base.  The answer was that the 2H dial was the proper dial.  However someone did mention that many 4H dials were also mounted in the B1 in addition to the D1 (oval) base.

I just checked inside my B1 and it also reads "429" as opposed to the Roman Numeral date.    Generally the Roman Numeral date is what comes to mind.  Perhaps they hadn't started that method yet in 1929.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 11:45:19 PM by Dennis Markham »

Offline BDM

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2008, 01:07:35 AM »
Just a side note that comes to mind. On Ebag I've seen several B1 mounts being sold off with #5 dials. Several years back, there was a discussion about this on the list server. General consensus was W.E. never mounted #5 dials in B1 mounts, instead removing them for service in favor of a D1 or H1 mount. But they did on D1 mounts.

Dennis, when you say #4H dials being used on B1 mounts, you mean as replacements?

--Brian--

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Offline Dennis Markham

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2008, 07:38:36 AM »
I am certainly no dial expert.  All I know is what I hear passed down or what I've read on line.  But I believe a B1 would not have left the factory with anything but the a #2 dial.  I'm sure there must have been field replacements with the later converted #2 or a #4 with the notched dial plate.  From what I remember the B1's were only released for two years before the D1 replaced them.  So if you think about it, those are pretty old....mine is dated 1929, so what the two years were may be '27 - '29 or '28 - 30..something like that....I'm sure the time-line on those is readily available on one of the collector's sites.

The #4's were released in 302's and I have found them mounted in the black D1's as well as the painted D1's that came along in the early 1950's.  So everything was used and re-used.  Many of the D1's in color were released with the 5J dial but I got lucky with the ivory one I posted  a while back as it had a 4H inside. 

Offline BDM

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2008, 06:47:38 PM »
Dennis, that's what I was thinking. The B1 should have left service by the time the D1 came along. But, who knows?? I would bet the B1 stayed in production for a short time, over lapping the D1. Plus, I would lay a pay-check that W.E. field serviced a B1 or two, installing a #4 dial. Why not? Like W.E. cared at the time ;)

--Brian--

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Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2008, 01:17:40 PM »
If someone could simply take pictures of the front and back of each KNOWN model, and label them,  that would go much further.

D/P

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Offline Dennis Markham

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2008, 01:54:39 PM »
Here are four photos showing the back and front of a #4 and #5 dial.  From the outside when the dial is assembled they look pretty much alike, especially with the finger wheels and dial card in place.

On these two the major differences are the pulse pawl arm and the governors.  I think the difference to the ear is the ticking sound the dial makes during the return.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 11:37:39 PM by Dennis Markham »

Offline BDM

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Re: W.E. Dial Identification
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2008, 01:53:26 AM »
Great post Dennis. That should make it easy ;D  BTW, I just dug up an extra #2AA dial I forgot about. Nice little prize in my attic :o

--Brian--

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