Author Topic: Contentious and rambling Analog multiplexing for connecting PABX to Central Office discussion  (Read 2349 times)

bellsystem

  • Guest
Alex,
I think you midunderstood,

I DO want a SxS switch. But not as my MAIN PBX. I will nest that as a station. So to make an outside call with that, I would dial 99 first. I plan to have multiple nested PBXs, including PABXs and PMBXs,

My primary PBX will definitely be electronic. So will the central office it is connected to, although if I have my own Central Office, I might also offer connections to that. While I definitely want the great technology of the 20s, I also need the boring technology of today in order to join conference calls and navigate IVR systems.

I want to be able to use TT phones just as one would expect in 2017. The SxS switches I have will serve more of a hobbyist purpose rather than a functional one.

Sorry for any confusion. My main PBX will definitely be 100% electronic and it will definitely switch internal calls analog - and hopefully CO ones too.

unbeldi

  • Guest
The point is that DID did not reduce the number of channels required between the PSTN and the PBX.  Both the DID traffic and attendant traffic was usually carried over a DID trunk group of the same size as the previous incoming ringdown trunk group which appeared only at the attendant.

That is only because the number of circuits was already optimized based on peak traffic analysis. This was well practiced for a long time.  DID added the capability for direct addressing of stations without providing a dedicated ringdown circuit for each, which was not possible previously and would have required expanding a ringdown trunk group. DID therefore indeed minimized the cost ratio per benefit, if not the absolute cost or number of circuits.

But this level of detail and bickering is rather inappropriate in the scope of the thread and the level of questioning by the OP.  At some point you have to be able to decide to stop explaining and complaining over every ever so minute detail and move on.

Dominic_ContempraPhones

  • Guest
PRI has faster call set up and tear down and resolves glare with DMS automatically.  I have a Central Office Simulator too, but that's no fun.

There are/were NI-1, NI-2, DMS-CUSTOM, and 5ESS flavors of PRI.  We had our own custom PRI format because we felt the standard and 5ESS formats were suboptimal (ie. sucked beans), but, we respected 5ESS, and supported it fully so that we could communicate with it and all Western E. equipment.  You're DMS?  I thought we were talking to a 5ESS or 5XB ... fooled ya, didn't we?  The joke's on you!  Listen for a clean dial tone next time pal and no CLUNK.

I have analog direct inward dial on my Nortel BCM 50 PBX via an ADID-8 media bay module.  Nobody offers it, even though DMS can do it.  I dropped verbal F bombs on Bell when they said no.  They wouldn't offer fractional PRI ... more yelling.  I'm not paying for no effin full PRI ... gimmie 4 channels and shut your face.  Oh, and I want a Meridian Centrex EBS analog line too (the 8 kHz one) and an ISDN BRI digital with EKTS (Electronic Key Telephone Service) and CACH (Call Appearance Call Handling) ... more NOs.  Well ef u then.  LOL.

As a fully digital single stage time switch, no analog device or PBX or party line was left out.  All were welcome ... including all pay telephones.  As a computer, we could do more than SxS or crossbar.

"Bell, I want LRS (line reversal on seizure)" ... no.  But this analog thing needs it.  No.
"Bell, I want LRA (line reversal on answer)" ... no.  Same as above.

Go into DMS and ADO them through SERVORD and never say that again, or I'll out all your DNs so fast you'll have to use string and paper cups to make calls.

Grandfathered?  DMS still accepts those commands.  I'll grandfather you if you don't stop this nonsense.

THEN, they replaced DMS with a copper line gateway to a BROADWORKS softswitch and pulse service was gone.  "Bell Canada, you will live to regret this moment".  LOL.

We learned from ESS and developed SP-1, but then said, oh, let's just make the whole thing digital.  It was the logical next step.  Your ear is not capable of discerning the difference BellSystem.  Only Lindsay Wagner's bionic ear can.  Don't you think we tested that?  We did double blind tests on various victims.  Which sounds better?  That one.  That one.  That one.  That one was the digital one.  When we put the digital converter in the phone, it sounded EVEN BETTER, because the last mile was gone.

That's Anna Log for you.  She was always a mean lady.

But, you had to be less than 3000 feet from the CO.  Beyond that, we had to use Anna without intermediate equipment along the way.  On good copper lines, it didn't make that much of a difference on that extra 7000 feet in terms of sound.

To our dying day, we honored all 1ESS standards that were set in 1965, including the 11 = * so that rotary and 1500 telephones could access vertical service access codes.  SL-100 did Autovon precisely.  People didn't know DMS was behind HALF the lines in America.  We faked everything so well.  Holy mackerel, I've been using an alien phone switch all this time.

We interplayed with SxS by letting them cut through to us on the first dial pull.  Through a simple translation, we "inserted" that first digit on the trunk group SxS used, which was a 5 for locals on the last SxS machine in North America in 2001.  It was in Nantes, QC in 2001, which finally, the operator said, can we have a DMS-10 please to replace this hunk of junk?

Are you sure?  It is the last one in North America.  "Yes, we can't offer any calling features".  Why not keep it up and we'll put the DMS-10 alongside it.  They wanted it gone.  NT pulled the last SxS out of operation that year.  Nobody complained.  I don't know what happened to that switch.

Phreakers didn't understand "the digital" (Mr. Evan Doorbell) when he visited it -- funny watching him get confused as the SxS cut through to DMS and then when digit analysis was engaged, DMS would boot him out when it figured out the number he was dialing was not routable and gave him treatment before he even finished dialing.

I laughed so hard.  Poor guy.  He should have known "the digital".  We understood analog, but they couldn't understand us, and made no attempt to.  Hint:  learn.

We provided the digitone to digipulse CO equipment that allowed those SxS touch-tone subscribers to use their push-button phones on that SxS.  Why do you say SxS is rotary only?

It was very clean sounding, and Mr. Doorbell made note of that.  That was us!  We also provided digipulse pushbutton telephones to SxS or other nXB subscribers beginning in 1976 if the operating company felt that was more cost effective.  It usually was.

We support all and try to play friendly with all switches and analog devices.  That was our style because we were doing it for 100 years.  We would never de-support rotary or any kind of analog communication in or out.  NEVER -- it was against our religion, and there was no need to.  Are you kidding?  Never.  We were EVERGREEN and went to great lengths to ensure that all legacy services would work.

However, our internal switching fabric and inter-DMS communication was digital over optical.  It had to be.  We had the World Line Card to your home, which could do whatever you wanted, minus one or two things where we'd have to change the line card.  Do you want ground start?  Sure!  You have a payphone at home and want polarity reversal?  Sure!  It was the telco who said no.  All they had to do was type in one line in many cases.  Payphone controller from eBay? ... no.  Hello Bell, LCC is COIN, CDF, RCD -- that means coin dialtone first, reverse coin disposal.  Hurry up and type it in.

I'm getting off track again ...

All my crap is 464C compliant for Anna DID or whatever the heck it was killed, I mean called -- wink start, immediate, or delay with pulse, DTMF, or MF inpulsing.

The reason for incoming only is to eliminate any possibility of glare, which analog techniques could only reduce, not eliminate.  PRI solves this by allowing switches to resolve glare and hide it from both parties.

You can also statically map any analog trunk (which is really a line in this case) to any PBX extension using loop start facilities, but that line can be used by nobody else on the PBX.

Outgoing trunks are analog loop start.  We separate them as I said so as to eliminate the possibility of GLARE (when both sides try to seize the line at the same time, causing a collision).

DMS and Meridian through PRI had "YIELD" "STAND" settings to resolve GLARE.  DMS always stood, and Meridian always yielded, so Meridian would back up and make a U turn ... allowing the incoming call to terminate.  If it terminated on the extension that caused the collision which was off hook, it would local hunt step to the next key on that person's phone while he was off hook.  I set it up that way.  Meridian now grabs another PRI to continue his call on the other key.  Now he has to figure out if the incoming guy will hang up before the guy he's calling answers and can say, "hold on a minute".  LOL.

Nobody would ever know a collision occurred.  On analog residential, DMS won every time.  It happened to me a few times.

DMS can also do analog direct inward dial using an IBN line where DMS provides battery.  You set up the analog trunk on the BCM PBX as a DISA.

DMS maps the DIDs to that DN using two tables - DIGMAN and I forget, and rings the PBX -- the PBX answers the call after 2 rings so as to grab the Caller ID -- Dialable Directory Number you know, not the ordinary junk.  Then, DMS will inpulse the digits dialed (all or some as dictated by DIGMAN) and DIGMAN adds the DISA password up front, with pauses, and other command sequences your PBX wants.

During this time, DMS is silent - RINGBACK IS NOT PROVIDED TO THE CALLER even though your PBX has already rung twice and answered and it is sending in touch tones.  It opens up after it finishes the inpulse, and then your PBX's ringback or busy signal or other treatment goes back to the caller.

DMS suppresses audio here so as to provide a transparent experience -- it can't give ringback because it doesn't know if your PBX extension will be busy or what-not, but the effect is it appears your call completion is significantly delayed because PRI is ZAP and so fast.

That's why you use PRI.  But you can't, you gotta SIP trunk now, and Bell can shove that.

Dominic_ContempraPhones

  • Guest
BellSystem ... SxS?  You'll be sorry.  Your neighbors will call the cops thinking Chicago mobsters from the 30s are machine gunning you.

Touch-tone?  Digitone.  Your PBX will do the digitone to digipulse conversion you silly goose.  Even Panascenic does that.  That ugly thing most collectors use.  Yuck.

bellsystem

  • Guest
Dominic,
You seem to have some fundamental misunderstandings.

Touch-Tone is an AT&T trademark. It's not a word novices use.
I'm using SxS as shorthand for electromagnetical switches, aka Strowger switches.

SxS switches are fully controlled based off of dial pulses. You can use your switchhook to control them, but you can't use a touch-tone phone to control 'em. TT would have to be converted to DP, and the * and # buttons can't be converted to DP (even though 1167 equates to *67, etc.)

That's like saying you can use a dial phone with a manual Central Office. It's not doable! An operator still has to plug you in.

Panasonic automatically converts DP to TT, although for one of my phones, it's for some reason converting TT to DP... and Panasonic PBX systems are really the only small, lightweight PBXs that have features. I have 2 now. But when I get more phones, I would upgrade to a full-size commercial PBX.

I doubt PRI is disappearing, and I just checked and CenturyLink offers analog trunking (you'll get my business one day!). So does Verizon. And if the phone company doesn't do what I want, screw them: I'll build my own central office and they'll lose my business. Phone service has sucked since 1984.

Even if the telcos. wanted to push SIP, they can't phase out other options. What about places with no or unreliable Internet connectivity? And do you do party-lines with SIP? Rotary phones?
And as soon as people go VoIP, they lose access to dial-0 operator service and don't realize they can't make collect, person-to-person, or station-to-station calls by dialing 0, and then have to dial some 11-digit number just to reach an operator that will rip them off.

So - what would work best for me, do you think? 1ESS? 5ESS? DMS100? DMS500?

Dominic_ContempraPhones

  • Guest
BellSystem,

Century Link is DMS.  These are Nortel's DMS SuperNode analog trunk cards.  Buy your SxS and take your pick -- whatever your SxS supports ...

First, read this:

"DMS-100 translations permit the use of the prefix ‘1’ for all billable (non-local) 7 and 10 digit calls. This scheme may be used to provide uniform dialing within an NPA with Step-by-Step (SXS) exchanges (which
require the ‘1’ prefix for routing to a serving CAMA office for billing). If an NPA with this dialing arrangement exhausts the NNX format and uses NPX formats for some office codes, then the code ambiguities can be resolved by the use of a critical (four second) interdigital time-out after the seventh digit."

SxS understands MF (not DTMF), loop, and battery-ground inpulsing for DID (termination)  Outpulsing to DMS is the same.

SxS does not understand DTMF trunk-side.
SxS lineside can be modified with Northern's digitone/digipulse converters.

Century Link will not trunk its DMS to you like this because you are not a telephone company, and SxS is not a PBX.

DMS is digital, but it did route calls to and from SxS machines all the time in its early days when there was a mix of analog and digital.


NT2X72AC Four-wire incoming, outgoing or two-way, DI, DP or MF, E&M trunk circuit.

NT2X78AA Four-wire integrated SF, MF trunk circuit.

NT2X81AB Two-wire incoming, outgoing or two-way, Type DI, DP or MF, E&M trunk circuit.

NT2X82AA Two-wire incoming, loop, reverse battery, DP or MF trunk circuit.

NT2X83AA Two-wire outgoing, loop, reverse battery, DP or MF trunk circuit.

NT2X88AA Four-wire incoming, outgoing or two-way, Type II, DP or MF, E&M.

NT2X92AA Two-wire outgoing, loop, reverse battery, MF trunk circuit.

NT1X54AA Four-wire jack ended trunk circuit.

NT2X65AA Centralized Automatic Message Accounting (CAMA) position signaling circuit.

NT2X66AA CAMA suspension and calls waiting circuit, loop or E&M.

NT2X90AC Incoming or outgoing test trunk, two-wire with S-lead DP, MF, DTMF (DMS-100).

NT2X90AD Incoming or outgoing test trunk, two-wire with S-lead, DP, MF, DTMF (DMS-100).

NT2X95AA Two-way DID/DOD PBX loop trunk. MF, DP (DMS-100).

NT2X98AA Two-way incoming trunk with S-lead control. Reverse battery, DP, MF.

NT3X06AA Outgoing trunk to co-located 3CL switchboard with S-lead supervision. MF, DP, coin, non-coin.

NT3X07AA Incoming trunk from co-located 3CL switchboard MF, non-coin only.

NT5X30AA 101 communication test line circuit.


unbeldi

  • Guest
Dominic,
You seem to have some fundamental misunderstandings.

Touch-Tone is an AT&T trademark. It's not a word novices use.
I'm using SxS as shorthand for electromagnetical switches, aka Strowger switches.

SxS switches are fully controlled based off of dial pulses. You can use your switchhook to control them, but you can't use a touch-tone phone to control 'em. TT would have to be converted to DP, and the * and # buttons can't be converted to DP (even though 1167 equates to *67, etc.)

That's like saying you can use a dial phone with a manual Central Office. It's not doable! An operator still has to plug you in.

Panasonic automatically converts DP to TT, although for one of my phones, it's for some reason converting TT to DP... and Panasonic PBX systems are really the only small, lightweight PBXs that have features. I have 2 now. But when I get more phones, I would upgrade to a full-size commercial PBX.

I doubt PRI is disappearing, and I just checked and CenturyLink offers analog trunking (you'll get my business one day!). So does Verizon. And if the phone company doesn't do what I want, screw them: I'll build my own central office and they'll lose my business. Phone service has sucked since 1984.

Even if the telcos. wanted to push SIP, they can't phase out other options. What about places with no or unreliable Internet connectivity? And do you do party-lines with SIP? Rotary phones?
And as soon as people go VoIP, they lose access to dial-0 operator service and don't realize they can't make collect, person-to-person, or station-to-station calls by dialing 0, and then have to dial some 11-digit number just to reach an operator that will rip them off.

So - what would work best for me, do you think? 1ESS? 5ESS? DMS100? DMS500?

What a circus...

I just hope you're making a big joke or just enjoy arousing laughter and ridicule, because your statements and rationale are just unfathomable.  Is it seriously a loss to not need collect calls, person-2-person calls, etc., etc.  when these service were created and useful in times when long-distance costs were exorbitant in comparison today, when it no longer costs any more to make a 2000 mile call than a 2-block call ?  I have not paid long-distance charges anywhere in the US for about ten years or more, and today I make zero-cost international calls to Europe with better quality than ever on any long-distance trunk.  And educate me please, why would I want to talk to a dial-0 operator ? I can't recall doing that in perhaps 30, 40 years, and never did I think of it being a service I desire.   Why would I today want to control a step switch with my switch hook ?

BTW, Touch-Tone was vacated as trademark over 30 years ago.

Finally, you lecture someone about his purported misunderstandings with your level of expertise ?


bellsystem

  • Guest
Unbeldi,
     I don't make $100,000 a year. Long Distance is STILL expensive - $3.95 per month from American Telephone and Telegraph plus $0.15 per minute. A simple 40 minute call easily costs over $6.00.

And how do you deal with answering machines?

Even if nobody's home, if you make a long-distance call and the call is answered by an answering machine, which is pretty typical, you are charged for the call. The only way to avoid this charge is to call the Operator and call person-to-person: this way, you are NOT charged unless someone is actually home.

If you make 1 call per day long-distance, and you dial direct, you waste $0.15 per day. This is a whopping $55 of unnecessary long-distance charges PER YEAR. I don't know about you ubeldi, but I have better things to do with my money than donate it to the phone company.

"When it no longer costs any more to make a 2000 mile call than a 2-block call ?"
Are you serious? If you have a regular phone, there is a HUGE difference in COST. A 2 hour phone call made two blocks away will cost you.... $0.00. A 2,000 mile away phone call, at $0.15 per minute, AT&T's current long-distance rate in Wisconsin, will set you back... $18.

$18 - $0 is NOT equal to $0. Therefore, your statement is not correct. (I realize it's probably true you might have a free long-distance plan or unlimited LD plan. Not everyone does or is willing to pay for that. Just because you don't pay for long distance, doesn't mean everybody else doesn't).

Why would you want to talk to a dial 0 operator? Well first, for station-to-station, collect, and person-to-person calls. And phones with no dial? (I'm sure somebody's got 'em on this forum...) way easier to jab the switchhook ten times for an operator, then ask for her to complete your call, than try switchhook dialing an entire number. Have fun with that,

What if you have trouble dialing a number? Busy Line Verification? Somebody left their phone off-the-hook? Asking for information (esp. for numbers that are not in the telephone directory). These are all situations where the Operator makes your life so much easier than it would be without 'em.

Finally, EMERGENCIES. 2% of the US lacks 911 service. If they didn't have the local police, fire, and medical numbers memorized, and they were NOT able to dial 0, they'd be screwed. And sometimes, 911 is not available - the news is covered with 911 service outages constantly. Recently, someone tried to call 911 from behind a PBX and obviously, got nowhere. Dialing 0, whether you're on a PBX or not, should get you somewhere. If someone is having problems with, or can't call, 911, the Operator is there to help.


I doubt anyone still calls the operator regularly, but they are good person to be able to reach.

Just because YOU don't need to call the Operator and don't see a need for it, doesn't mean that nobody else in the world does. You know that dumpy looking house down the street? Just because you don't live there, doesn't mean you can bulldoze it. Someone else lives there. Other people matter too. If you don't have a use for the Operator, that's understandable. Probably most people don't. That does make her unnecessary. That's like saying "I don't shop at Walmart. Walmart isn't necessary". It doesn't work like that.

And everyone, I am NOT planning on implementing a SxS switch for my primary PBX. Please stop answering my questions in regards to that. I am going to have an electronic PBX.

Dominic_ContempraPhones

  • Guest
It's okay unbeldi.  He doesn't understand.  Collectors generally don't.

There was this phreaker who went to Nantes, Quebec, Canada -- the last step by step machine in service, in 2001.

This poor lonely SxS machine (the last) was surrounded by DMS remotes.  This guy (Evan Doorbell?) couldn't even look at the local dialing plan, and because they didn't understand translations, he went kinda nuts, because he couldn't figure out what he considered odd behavior.

That SxS was operating like a PBX.  Calls that terminated within that machine -- 7 digit dialing was not permitted, and he found a payphone (an NT Centurion) and started using it.

The SxS was 819-547-3000 to 3999.  7-digit dialing was in effect and ALL local exchanges around him were served out of various DMS remotes and were 2xx, 4xx, 5xx, 6xx, 7xx, 8xx, 9xx.

3 is missing from nearby local office codes.  That's no accident.  There is no office code starting with 3 in that SxS's local calling area.  There's your answer.

So, a 5 cut thru right away because there were 554, and 58x exchanges nearby that were local.  They did it to save one trunk group.  Obvious to me, but not to him.  He didn't realize that.  So when he dialed 547-xxxx and got treatment before he finished dialing, he couldn't understand it.

The independent obviously asked NT/Bell to disallow loopbacks.  So, it was 4 digit local dialing for the phones connected to that step.

I'd say that town was lucky.  4 digit dialing in 2001!

Dominic_ContempraPhones

  • Guest
Easy.  Get an IBN line ... ask for an IBNRTE of "LINE" and DTMF inpulsing.  Buy your DIDs.  Ask for a digit manipulation (DIGMAN) so that you get the last 4.

CenturyLink will map those to your IBN DN.

Get a BCM50 PBX.  Enable DISA on your IBN DN on trunk 061 -- plug that IBN line into trunk 061.

Create a virtual target line for each DID.  Set received digits to the last 4.  Set redirect to the number on your SxS -- put in an access code to grab trunk 062, say 6, for private, and that will tandem the call through from 061 to 062.  Oh, and set the outpulsing mode on 062 to pulse dialing.
 
Done.

Dominic_ContempraPhones

  • Guest
And connect 062 from the Nortel BCM to your SxS lineside.  To your SxS, it will look like an analog phone.

Going the other way, HA!  I'll let you figure that out.  If you don't want to use the SxS as a repeater, then ...

fill in the blank.

Or, you could always use Meridian ESN.  That's even more fun.

Victor Laszlo

  • Guest
I make $100,000 a year, and I haven't paid a cent for a LD call in 15 years.  I pay $25 / month for everything. I haven't spoken to an Operator for decades. No need to. Why in Heaven's name are you paying $0.15 per minute?  Because it's making some historically significant or idealistic point to do so?

"It's okay unbeldi.  He doesn't understand.  Collectors generally don't."

He's not a collector, nor is he an operator. He is keeping this conversation going to see how patient and helpful we can be.  Some of his assertions and opinions are incredible. I believe that the term is "troll."


Offline TelePlay

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    • . . . times keep changin'
This was moved here in the dead of night with no one else logged in - it just disappeared, but was not removed. It came from this topic in case it needs to be moved back.

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?board=102.0

This move was made after reading this idiotic reply from bellsystem

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18377.msg189546#msg189546

followed by what appears to be a sarcastic attack on bellsystem by Dominic_ContempraPhones

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18377.msg189548#msg189548

followed by this apt reply by Victor Lazlo with a possible explanation bellsystem

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18377.msg189560#msg189560

"He's not a collector, nor is he an operator. He is keeping this conversation going to see how patient and helpful we can be.  Some of his assertions and opinions are incredible. I believe that the term is "troll."

This topic has been spotted in comments in other boards having to do with the friendliness of the CRPF vs ATCA including this post from twocvbloke

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18378.msg189441#msg189441

when he said "That was quite a long time ago since I used that forum (disagreement with the management siding with a moderator over them claiming my asking for any ideas on what an electronic "thing" I'd acquired was pointless and ridiculous!!), too uptight there, this place here's far more relaxed and they don't mind things sliding off-topic (most of the time!!)..."

followed by a reply to that from new member mickash

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18378.msg189545#msg189545

saying "It's certainly very relaxed here and without the abuse, bad language and ridicule found on some forums."

Then there is the topic by Doug Rose trying to put the major disagreements in perspective and seemed to not be understood by some of the contentious posters in this moved topic.

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18393.0

---------------

So, that long distance reply had a lot of stuff between the lines about bellsystem's position which did not need to be replied to, but was, and so I felt it was time to give this topic a break.

This topic can be returned to the original board at any time by anyone by simply removing this reply and deleting the *** xxx *** from the very first topic post before moving it back.


That, in 100 words or more, is my reasoning for moving this out of the public side.

Offline TelePlay

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After input from members and discussion of this topic, it was decided that it be re-launched on the public side but locked to further replies - the discussion is closed. Even though this topic was not moving forward to an end (solving the initial topic question) and filled with many replies considered off topic,  it was pointed out that some of the replies contained useful information in themselves.

One of the reasons this has happened was the large number of ad hominem replies and pointed attacks on another member’s knowledge, understanding and/or credibility in telephony. Another reason was topic digression, numerous tangents and red herrings taking the discussion far afield from the initial topic question.

With the topic stalled and the discussion becoming contentious, it was decided to end the discussion but to make what was posted available to those who participated and anyone in the future who may find any of the information within useful. It was re-launched in its entirety with nothing deleted, modified, changed or added other than this explanation.

Going forward, this re-launch also make all if the useful information within available to any member who would like to take it upon themselves to extract that information and place it into a document or topic in logical order including an index and glossary for future reference. This summary can be placed where ever appropriate on the forum.

In the future, topics will be watched more closely for digression and contentious replies than in the past. This forum is here to help people, to teach new members, to exchange ideas, to correct errors, to show off phones and to discuss phones or phone systems in a civil and friendly manner.

There is no room for attitude.