Author Topic: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times i  (Read 1246 times)

bellsystem

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Can key telephone systems be used multiple times i
« on: June 29, 2017, 11:37:26 AM »
I am looking to deploy a PBX with vaguely this setup (where the four numbers are the extensions, i.e. (NPA) NXX-XXXX, last 4 Xs if DID):
Direct Inward Dial/Direct Outward Dial:
1000 -- Auto-Attendant
1003 -- Directory
1005 -- Main House Line (General Line)
1010 -- Work Line Basement
1015 -- Personal Line Basement
1020 -- Fax Basement
1110 -- Work Line Ground Level
1115 -- Personal Line Ground Level
1120 -- Fax Ground Level

The remaining phones, whether they be 20 or 200, will not have DID/DOD. They will not be directly dialable from the PSTN, and their outgoing caller ID will be 1000, rather than their actual extension.

Some of the extensions that DID/DOD will be used on, I would like to setup in a key system of some sort, although it would be more complicated than any systems I've encountered.

Since most Western Electric multi-line/key telephones only support 5 lines, I would like these lines to be used for the key system:
1005
1010
1015
1110
1115

All of these telephones, with the exception of 1005, the main line, would be actual telephones in their respective office. There would be a phone connected to 1005 in the both the ground level and basement office.

The problem is that these are likely to be the phones with the most incoming calls. Given that I plan on having phones all over the house, I'd like to be able to take an incoming call for one of these lines when I'm not actually in the office the phone is in (or either office, with 1005).

I was thinking of putting a few multi-line telephones around the house. Because I'd be using all 5 lines, there wouldn't be room for the phone to have its own extension number, so I'd have it next to a singleline phone in that particular room, most likely. I'm thinking about getting between 7 and 10 of these to place around the house, spaced apart so that if there is an incoming call on any of those five lines, it not only rings the primary telephone the line is connected to, but it also rings (the actual gongs, not a buzzer, for all lines) all the key system telephones as well.

To complicate matters, I would like the privacy-line telephones to be used for the primary phones so that if a call is answered on the primary telephone (with the exception of 1005, since there would be two, which is not possible for a privacy switch), the user at that station can turn the switch and prevent anyone from using any of the key telephone sets (multi-line sets) around the house to listen in. If a call is answered on one of those five lines using a Multi-Line telephone, then someone else can still use another key system telephone, or the primary telephone, to listen in. For 1005, since there would be two primary phones, I'd splice/duplicate the wiring closer to the PBX and run wire to each of the primary phones but also the multi-line phones directly - thus there would be no way to enable privacy on the main line.

So in the end, each of the multi-line telephones would look something like this one, only with the actual extension numbers:

     http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/yJwAAOSwdjNZCAjb/s-l1600.jpg  (attached below)

I believe this would require running the line for those five extensions to the five sets first (splicing the line for 1005, and running it to the two phones in both offices). From the primary phones, I would need to run wiring back into some sort of splitter for key systems, and then combine one of each of the lines to run to each of the multi-line telephones.

Obviously, this would be a lot of complicated wiring. I'm not too worried about loss of quality, since only one of the ML telephones or the primary telephone should be utilized to use a line at any time, although feasibly all the ML phones could be connected to different lines, or maybe a few on the same line to set up inherent manual "three way calling" of some sort.

Is there a commercially available solution out there to accomplish what I have described, or would this all have to be custom-wired? I don't imagine there are too many setups out there this complicated, but if there are, I see no need to reinvent the wheel.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 07:09:32 AM by TelePlay »

Victor Laszlo

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2017, 01:41:05 PM »
I have tried to read your question, but keep getting bogged down, not in small part because you interject "non-facts" and although you seem to display a fundamental understanding of what you want, you demonstrate a basic MIS-understanding of how some telephones and systems work.

Quote
"Since most Western Electric multi-line/key telephones only support 5 lines..."

We assume that you refer to 1A, 1A1, and 1A2 systems.  In that case, you should realize that:

The 46x, 56x, 156x, 256x series phones have one hold key and 5 line keys.

The 83x, 283x (et al) series telephones have one hold key and 9, 19, or 29 line keys.

ComKey 416® systems have a square architecture, but can be equipped with a "personal line" kit to allow a 5th line to appear on one or many phones.

The Call Director® series of telephones have one hold key, and up to 29 line keys.

The Horizon® and Merlin® series of "voice terminals" can come equipped with that many, or many more, line appearances.

The x565 series telephones can be equipped with a switchhook intercom kit that allows an intercom line to be accessed when no line key is pressed.

Other manufactures make answering ("trading") turrets that can be equipped with an almost infinite number of line pick-ups, limited only by the desk or wall space available and the length of the subscriber's reach or comfort. Some of these are 1A2-based, some are not.

Moving along:

DID numbers, if you can educate your RBOC in what they really are, can compel them to provide them, and you can afford what they will charge for them, come in minimum groups of 20 consecutive numbers.  Be advised that DID service, as a promoted product, is fast being eliminated in most wire centers where it was once offered.  It CAN be replicated by using a VoIP service, at much lower rates. Many of us on C*NET do it that way.

Quote
"The problem is that these are likely to be the phones with the most incoming calls. Given that I plan on having phones all over the house, I'd like to be able to take an incoming call for one of these lines when I'm not actually in the office the phone is in (or either office, with 1005)."

NOT a problem. Research, for instance, discussions on TAFAS. ("trunk answer from any station")

Quote
"To complicate matters, I would like the privacy-line telephones to be used for the primary phones so that if a call is answered on the primary telephone (with the exception of 1005, since there would be two, which is not possible for a privacy switch), the user at that station can turn the switch and prevent anyone from using any of the key telephone sets (multi-line sets) around the house to listen in. If a call is answered on one of those five lines using a Multi-Line telephone, then someone else can still use another key system telephone, or the primary telephone, to listen in."

Yes, you sure have complicated matters...but we can help you sort it all out.  The feature you are looking for is called "privacy."  It can be implemented in 1A2 and electronic key systems.  It is generally NOT accomplished with a manual key. It is done automatically.  The larger ComKey telephones, based on 1A2 architecture, come equipped with privacy circuit boards. They detect a grounded A-lead within the system, at the moment that a second person tries to access a busy line.  In electronic systems, it can be implemented through software.
Quote
"...since there would be two, which is not possible for a privacy switch..."
  See above.

Quote
"For 1005, since there would be two primary phones, I'd splice/duplicate the wiring closer to the PBX and run wire to each of the primary phones but also the multi-line phones directly - thus there would be no way to enable privacy on the main line." 

One does not "splice" in a key system cabling plan.

Quote
"So in the end, each of the multi-line telephones would look something like this one, only with the actual extension numbers: http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/yJwAAOSwdjNZCAjb/s-l1600.jpg"

That is a Western Electric model 2565HKM-60.

Quote
"I believe this would require running the line for those five extensions to the five sets first (splicing the line for 1005, and running it to the two phones in both offices). From the primary phones, I would need to run wiring back into some sort of splitter for key systems, and then combine one of each of the lines to run to each of the multi-line telephones."

Assuming that all along, you have been discussing 1A2, you need to study how those systems are cabled, cross-connected and laid out. I suggest that you read Key Systems Manuals, I, II and if you want to learn about ComKey systems, III.   These systems use specially-designed backboards, terminals, cables, and relay equipment. Are you familiar with any of the 1A2 equipment?  Cabling (not "wiring") is on a "home-run" architecture.  No splicing or interconnections are required outside the KSU area.
Quote
"...some sort of splitter for key systems,..." 
There are devices that allow two key telephones to share one cable, but their use is not recommended due to violet-lead interaction and lack of ease in trouble-shooting. Are you, by any chance, referring to KS-19252 bridging adapters, List 1 through List 5?

Quote
"Is there a commercially available solution out there to accomplish what I have described, or would this all have to be custom-wired?"

The commercially-available solution is called, in your case, a 1A2 system.  No custom wiring necessary. 
Quote
"I don't imagine there are too many setups out there this complicated, but if there are, I see no need to reinvent the wheel."

You don't think so? Every small, medium, large and huge business in this country once had one. I worked on one that had 6,000 DID lines and 12,000 telephones.  Regardless of size, they are not complicated if the installer is well-trained and understands the concepts required. Your proposed system is not complicated.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 11:50:36 AM by TelePlay »

bellsystem

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2017, 01:48:38 PM »
Okay,
so how would I connect the 1A2 system to the PBX then? Does it support being connected like that?

I didn't mean MOST Western Electric phones, my bad. I meant all the phones that are multi-line that are the same STYLE as the 500 and 2500 telephones. I don't think there are any multi-line phones that look like the 554 or the 2554...

I know there are phones with more but I like those phones the best, so yes, I will limit myself to 5 lines.

If equipment can do the privacy automatically, even better. But there are some lines - like 1005 - where I WOULD want someone to be able to pick up another extension and listen in or join the conversation. Is that supported on a per-line basis or will it no allow two telephones connected to the same line to be off-hook at the same time?

Do you have links to those manuals? Are there part of the Bell System Practices?

Victor Laszlo

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2017, 02:02:05 PM »
The PBX has T&R outputs. They are cross-connected to the key system T&R inputs.

Are you aware that a PBX is simply a small CO, in operation?  That's why when the Bell System (the real one) refers to line circuits, for instance, they say "CO or PBX ckt."
Quote
"I don't think there are any multi-line phones that look like the 554 or the 2554..."

Right.  Are you familiar with the 6040 key or the 6050 key, or 2851 tel sets?

Quote
"I WOULD want someone to be able to pick up another extension and listen in or join the conversation. Is that supported on a per-line basis or will it no allow two telephones connected to the same line to be off-hook at the same time?"

It's called "privacy release" and, of course, it's offered for just such an eventuality as you describe. 

Quote
"Do you have links to those manuals? Are there part of the Bell System Practices?"

No.  Yes.

I will gladly tell you what you need to do. I will not tell you how to do it.  I do this for a living.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 06:02:21 AM by TelePlay »

bellsystem

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2017, 02:06:59 PM »
The 2851 I am familiar with. I may have one or two of those, but I'd mostly want phones that resemble the 500/2500,

Thanks for sharing the 6040 thing. Maybe I'll have one of those, just for the sake of it,

One of my projects for the next couple days is downloading all the Bell System Practices. I've got a list of websites to comb through. Hopefully I find some info on the 1A2 in there.

Victor Laszlo

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 02:15:43 PM »
Quote
"One of my projects for the next couple days is downloading all the Bell System Practices."

The BSP library would fill a room of Biblical proportions.  "Next couple days" ?  You will be down-loading 'til the cows come home. Why not TAKE MY SUGGESTION and read Volumes I II and III?  There are also a couple of websites put up by persons who claim to be experts in 1A2. You might be able to glean some basic understanding from those, separating the wheat from the chaff, and from the Wikipedia chapter on 1A2 which is moderately correct.

Are you familiar with how a 1A2 line circuit operates? Do you know what a KTU is? What the A-lead is? The cabling color code?  We asked you in a former thread to give us an idea of who you are, how you came to be interested in telephony, and what your basic (telephonic) educational background is, without being too nosy. Can you fill us in?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 11:54:53 AM by TelePlay »

bellsystem

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2017, 02:30:14 PM »
Well, I do want to look through the BSPs and they are scattered across many sites. Maybe I can do everyone a favor and put up one ZIP file so nobody else has to do the same,

I've already read the Wikipedia and FrillFreePhones entries for the 1A2 system.

I am somewhat familiar with RJ21 - the connector used by multi-line phones.

As my username implies, I'm very interested in the Bell System historically and would like to see it reinstated some day. Now that AT&T, Verizon, and all the other telcos. on the planet are trying to dump their landlines in the river, I don't believe any telecommunications companies around now would really object to monopolizing landlines again.

I bought my first and still favorite telephone, a beige Western Electric 500 with a G6 volume control handset and relatively longer cord on eBay. I have videos of these phones on my YouTube channel (same one I uploaded the video earlier in the 302 Sluggish ringer thread of the wonky ringer). From there, I got a few other phones. I'm saving now so I can get a decent-sized permanent home, and THEN I'll buy more telephones and telephone equipment, including the PBXs and key systems and everything else I've been discussing. Maybe even have a couple small COs.

I'm also involved in the Save Landlines movement - right now mostly objecting to legislation AT&T and the FCC propose in their dockets. Regardless of whether analog or digital is better, both are far better than VoIP.

I don't have, own, use, or will ever own or use, a cell phone, so unlike a lot of telephone hobbyists, who play the part and still have a smartphone, I rely only on landlines and payphones.

I've never worked for a telephone company, and am unlikely today anyways to get a job doing any of the jobs that existed when the Bell System existed.

I'm putting together a Bell System website. It should be live soon - maybe a week or so.

Hopefully that filled you in a little more.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 12:26:36 PM by TelePlay »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2017, 03:15:32 PM »
I didn't mean MOST Western Electric phones, my bad. I meant all the phones that are multi-line that are the same STYLE as the 500 and 2500 telephones. I don't think there are any multi-line phones that look like the 554 or the 2554...

There doesn't seem to be a good term for this. Most often they get called "1A2 Phones" to indicate they are Key System phones that connect to 1A2 type equipment to operate. But this doesn't account for other equipment that could also operate them such as 1A1 or AECo 10A1 or 10A2mand others...

But they can't just be called "Key Sets" because there are so many "other" key sets in existence mainly of the "electronic key system" variety.

When I worked in this type of equipment we always called it AKT which I believe is an Automatic Electric term that stands for "Automatic Key Telephone" where the word "Automatic" isn't in reference to "Automatic Electric Company" but is in reference to the "Automatic" function of lines ringing in, being put on hold, retrieved etc necessary help of an Attendant as in PABX's of that era.

So I still use AKT to indicate this type of system and EKT for newer electronic systems with proprietary phones/equipment but I presume that most people wouldn't know what I was referring to if if I started talking about AKT systems?

Terry

Victor Laszlo

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2017, 03:32:11 PM »
Quote
"I am somewhat familiar with RJ21 - the connector used by multi-line phones."

Nope.  You need to avoid another "alternative fact." 

The male plug and the female connector are generically called ribbon connectors. They are made by several companies, the original or most famous being the Amphenol company. They are therefore generally referred to as "amphenol plugs."  They are used on WE 1A, 1A1 and 1A2 key telephones. There are hundreds of "multi-line phones" that do not need or use these connections.

An RJ21X is a Registered Jack that uses a 25-pair (female) amphenol connector wired to one side of a 66M or equivalent terminal block. It is used as the interface between the LEC and the Subscriber, specifically, when multiple lines (up to 25) are in service.  It has nothing to do with connecting a key telephone instrument to a key system.

Here's some unsolicited advice, immerse yourself in the terms of art of telephony.  It will be a long road.  Don't get tripped up by using the wrong words. The moment that you use a wrong word, you lose your audience. I wish you luck.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 12:30:33 PM by TelePlay »

bellsystem

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2017, 03:54:51 PM »
From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1A2_Key_Telephone_System

RJ21 — the 25-pair connector used for 1A2 systems

unbeldi

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2017, 04:00:11 PM »
From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1A2_Key_Telephone_System

RJ21 — the 25-pair connector used for 1A2 systems

It is only missing the additional information, that it is only used for the incoming bundle of local loops from the central office.  Registered Jacks are interface and service definitions, not strictly plug types.   Someone fix that article!   The article on Registered Jacks makes this much clearer.

Victor Laszlo

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2017, 04:32:28 PM »
Every time you make a categorical and wrong statement, you dig yourself in deeper.  Who you gonna believe, a phone man with 50 years of experience, or Wikipedia?  Learn to listen to the real experts.

Study the appropriate BSP's.

Here's a 1A2 system that you can look at for reference:

http://www.stepswitch.us/1A2-KeySystems/index.htm
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 12:35:31 PM by TelePlay »

bellsystem

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2017, 04:45:06 PM »
Is there a limit for how many key system telephones can be connected to a 1A2, using the same lines? Or will quality just deteriorate?

Hopefully, I don't have to deal with all the complex wiring shown in those pictures! I probably wouldn't do this part myself anyways.

Offline rdelius

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2017, 10:19:20 PM »
The limits on the 1A2 are number of lamps that the power supply can handle.Too many will cause issues

Alex G. Bell

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Re: Can key telephone systems be used multiple times inside of a PBX?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2017, 10:26:06 PM »
The limits on the 1A2 are number of lamps that the power supply can handle.Too many will cause issues
20 lamps per lamp lead without extenders otherwise relay contacts overheat and KTUs fail.