Author Topic: Leich 100 Series wiring  (Read 1480 times)

unbeldi

  • Guest
Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2017, 10:21:29 AM »
The plot thickens!

I opened mine up to take more photos, and much to my surprise I have no blue lead on my dial like is shown on the diagram and You have in your phones. This does not as far as I can tell appear to have any detrimental effect on the operation of the phone, but it is interesting nonetheless. If my reading of the circuit diagram is correct, the only thing that changes is the transmitter is not shorted out of the circuit while dialing, only the receiver. Perhaps that would indicate that mine is an earlier phone with more similarity to the 700 series?

In any case, My dial is mounted in a recessed bezel like Alex's is. Also, my ring has large dots instead of the triangular chevrons I'm used to seeing on AE dials.

Mine has a 4 55 date on the base, so even though the elements have mid 1954 dates, they weren't actually assembled into a complete phone until April 1955.

Your dial appears to be earlier even than a 51A dial, it does not have the twin-contact springs.  Also, the die-cast dial base is black anodized, and I have been wondering whether those are actually late 24A36 dials, as shown in the 1949 dial technical bulletin by AE.   The AE and GTE literature leave some gaping uncertainties about this.  On one hand we that dial manual, and on the other we have GTE practices that state that die-cast dial bases are type 51 or later.  And then, GTE practices also contain other mistakes about dial history, including w/r/t WECo dials, IIRC.


Alex G. Bell

  • Guest
Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2017, 06:44:22 PM »
It's hard to find AE80s of this early date, as it is hard to find 100s.  I think AE_Collector (Terry) has some early 80s.  I don't know how long they made the 100, but perhaps no longer than until they started to make AE 80s for AE.
The intercom company guy I bought phone stuff from as a kid had lots of early 80s with manually compensated networks and separate 3" dials with outer rings from PAX systems he bought to refurbish. 

I was given an old 80 set back around 2008 by an old family friend but it's not here for inspection.  I think it was manually compensated too.  I have a few 86 sets: 6 button key sets (here), a beautiful 85 in green and probably some others.  Not sure what I have that are early examples.
Quote
I had always questioned why Leich jumped in numbers from type 700 to 100, in a short period of time. It think the 700s came out around 1953, and I have reached the opinion that the 100 series was brought to market after the GT merger with the Gary Company, and Leich became subordinate to Automatic Electric in the combination.  AE had the 80/90 series already on the books, so the successor to the Leich 700 became the 100.  Therefore, the 100 acquired the Type 52 dial from the AE 80, for which it was made, I believe.
Interesting idea.  Never thought about it.
Quote
So, this is the explanation for my asking for the dial pictures. I am kind of surprised to see yours had a recessed (cupped) dial mounting bezel/ring, rather than the Type 52 front mounted number plate.  Perhaps the early 100s also used 51A dials, which is what I think yours is if it has bifurcated springs with twin-contacts points.  The picture is straight on, so I can't determine whether that is true in fact.
Yes, it does.  AFAIK all early 80 sets used 51A dials with a separate outer ring and AFAI can see, this is the only way the ring could be attached to the dial since the metal 3" ring blocked the front holes around the hub used on 52 type dials
Quote
I thought 1955 was the first year of manufacture for the 100s, but Mentalstampede's 1954-dated receiver and transmitter may indicate the previous year.  Why else would Leich have bought WECo T1 and U1 elements ?  Perhaps they bought a large batch during the design phase already. On my August 1955 set, the elements are dated in January and April 1955, also several months before set production.
I wondered about their using WE transducers too.  But if this was just a batch, what did they use later?  Anything other than ITT would have required modification of the handset design.  The AE transmitter is much larger in diameter and depth and would have required a radical redesign.  OTOH, North Galion sets used WE F handset elements so apparently AT&T was not opposed to selling critical parts to independent mfrs.
Quote
It may well be that the 100-type evolved in components used in the course of this time in mid-1950s, especially as the dial is concerned. Stromberg-Carlson underwent similar contemporaneous evolution from 1400 to the 1500 series.

Your picture shows the two receiver shunt wires are more or less white/grey, while they are red and yellow in the diagram, and also on my set with the PVC insulation.  Is there evidence that they are just color-faded the entire length?
They may have been very "pastel" from the start.  The colors are even very difficult to discern with the naked eye and good white light.  But inspecting them carefully I see one is pale pink or tan (indistinct at this low level of color saturation), which might be the "nominal" red, one is pale yellow and one is plausibly white.  The others are certainly BL and GN, so it looks like they adhered to the colors shown on the diagram but time has taken its toll. 

I'm about to print the diagram and take it to my shop where the phone is to see why it does not ring and will check whether the presumed colors are on the terminals shown in the diagram, which would confirm my suppositions about their actual original colors.
Quote
The colors WH and GR, also R and Y were already used for the dial in the 700 series, so in the 100 they just added the blue. 
OTOH the 700 series was not the emulation of another circuit and they used the WE handset and line cord lead colors, which IIRC differed from AE's, so it seems to me it would have been more logical to part with the past practice and use dial lead colors which matched WE the same way as WE.
Quote
BTW, the 700 series had specifications, that it could use a WECo #7 dial, albeit wired differently than in a 500 set.
I wonder how it mounted!  Perhaps you are familiar with an AE mounting kit to install AE 52-type dials in 500 series sets so that independents using AE SATT (Strowger Automatic Toll Ticketing) CO equipment could use SATT dials on these sets.  That's the opposite case.
Quote
I think AE started using PVC insulation closer to their move to Northlake in 1957, so I think my dial may have been installed later than 1956, as I think I alluded to earlier.  That was the date on the replacement ringer.
I don't recall seeing textile insulated leads in AE 80-series telephone sets but I never made it a point to pay attention to this.

Alex G. Bell

  • Guest
Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2017, 01:21:28 AM »
Investigating why my 100 C does not ring I found correct ringer and capacitor wiring.  I had thought the ringer clapper spring seemed very stiff considering that the ringer frame is stamped "SL 8 57" in vermilion.  I took the "SL" to mean it was a straight line ringer but now I have my doubts. 

For one thing there is no bias spring and for another the clapper, though small, as it might be for either a SL or moderately high frequency ringer, is attached with a set screw, something I would only expect with a frequency ringer.  The clapper also sits pretty much half-way between gongs, another thing that suggests a frequency rather than SL ringer.

And then, the capacitor is a 70D, 0.15uF, which if correct for the ringer would make it 40 or 42Hz.  I tried bridging the 0.15uF capacitor with 0.47uF to bring it closer to the stated 0.5uF for a SL ringer and while that increased armature motion, it was not by enough.

According to the table posted below Reply #9 the 100 C marking on the bottom indicates a SL ringer so it's puzzling that with this and the ringer marked "SL" too, with "8 57", presumably a date, probably original to the set, it does not in fact appear to be a SL ringer.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 02:59:46 AM by Alex G. Bell »

Offline mentalstampede

  • no deposit, no return
  • ****
  • Posts: 447
Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2017, 12:45:22 PM »
Investigating why my 100 C does not ring I found correct ringer and capacitor wiring.  I had thought the ringer clapper spring seemed very stiff considering that the ringer frame is stamped "SL 8 57" in vermilion.  I took the "SL" to mean it was a straight line ringer but now I have my doubts. 

For one thing there is no bias spring and for another the clapper, though small, as it might be for either a SL or moderately high frequency ringer, is attached with a set screw, something I would only expect with a frequency ringer.  The clapper also sits pretty much half-way between gongs, another thing that suggests a frequency rather than SL ringer.

Interesting. It certainly sounds like a frequency ringer, bit I have never seen what a Leich straight line ringer looks like to compare. Is there anything stamped on the capacitor housing? My 20~ has the frequency stamped on the capacitor itself.
My name is Kenn, and I like telephones.

“Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.” --Robert Heinlein

Alex G. Bell

  • Guest
Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2017, 01:13:09 PM »
Interesting. It certainly sounds like a frequency ringer, bit I have never seen what a Leich straight line ringer looks like to compare. Is there anything stamped on the capacitor housing? My 20~ has the frequency stamped on the capacitor itself.
Thanks.  If so I did not notice but will look again and post photos. 

I read the code and capacitance value and looked them up on the chart on the wiring diagram.  The reed is so stiff, the clapper being centered and the lack of a bias spring all seem pretty clear indications that it is NOT a SL ringer despite the clear "SL" marking.  I have to think that between these things and the "C" code on the bottom of the set, that it was mismarked in the factory rather than the ringer having been swapped out.

I'm pretty sure I can replace it with a WE C4A or perhaps even replace the clapper assy with one from a C4A to keep the set more authentic. 

However past experience many years ago was that "opening" the magnetic circuit by removing the magnet caused significant loss of permanent magnetism, so the ringer did not work after re-assembly.  I believe I've seen  it stated somewhere many years later that the magnets were charged in place.  I'm not sure whether removing just the armature assy would have the same effect.

Alex G. Bell

  • Guest
Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2017, 04:17:34 PM »
Here are some additional photos of the ringer and capacitor with their markings and the base plate markings, and also some interesting details of the base plate. 

Note the odd square hole punched beneath the dial toward the edge with flanges flared upward.  I wonder about its purpose.

Also note the brass clip which seems to retain the network whose tail end under the ringer capacitor seems to slip into a "V" slot so the network can be replaced.  I popped the brass clip up and tried to dislodge the network, prying against the body of the capacitor but it did not come free with the amount of force I felt safe applying.


Online HarrySmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4977
  • 1937 302
Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2017, 04:55:38 PM »
Looking at that squarish hole magnified, the edges seem very rough and the metal is rusted where it was bent indicating the finish broke at those points. Maybe someone punched a hole to run a wire through?? Just a thought.
Harry Smith
ATCA 4434
TCI

"There is no try,
there is only
do or do not"

unbeldi

  • Guest
Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2017, 04:59:48 PM »
I agree, your set (AGB's) exhibits a high degree of oddness w/r/t the ringer, lol.
It certainly has all the feature of a frequency ringer, and an SL ringer would have a bias spring.

I don't have any 100-set brochures or any catalogs where the 100 sets are shown.   The ringer code table, that I posted, I got from a 700 set brochure, IIRC. I would have recorded comments, had I ever found any discrepancies with observed ringer markings.


Alex G. Bell

  • Guest
Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2017, 05:16:13 PM »
Looking at that squarish hole magnified, the edges seem very rough and the metal is rusted where it was bent indicating the finish broke at those points. Maybe someone punched a hole to run a wire through?? Just a thought.
I really don't think so.  The way the area around the hole is depressed/raised in a perfectly round circle suggests it was made in a press with a special die.

The original inside wire is still connected: brown jacketed 22AWG triplex, consistent with a 1950s installation.  It comes out the mounting cord hole, which is at the bottom when wall mounted.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 05:27:54 PM by Alex G. Bell »

Alex G. Bell

  • Guest
Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2017, 05:25:53 PM »
I agree, your set (AGB's) exhibits a high degree of oddness w/r/t the ringer, lol.
It certainly has all the feature of a frequency ringer, and an SL ringer would have a bias spring.

I don't have any 100-set brochures or any catalogs where the 100 sets are shown.   The ringer code table, that I posted, I got from a 700 set brochure, IIRC. I would have recorded comments, had I ever found any discrepancies with observed ringer markings.
If the ringer were not marked "SL" I might be inclined to think that more documentation would teach us something.  The fact of the "SL" marking matching the "C" code suggests to me that perhaps it came out of the factory as a SL set and was converted in the field to 40/42Hz by swapping the armature assy and capacitor.  That would explain how it passed final test on the production line.

I have a "frequency agile" ringing generator I concocted for testing.  When time permits I will try running it at 40-42Hz to see what happens and compare the construction of a WE C4A armature assy more carefully to see whether it looks like it would swap into place to convert it to SL.

Offline mentalstampede

  • no deposit, no return
  • ****
  • Posts: 447
Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2017, 10:22:44 AM »
I read the code and capacitance value and looked them up on the chart on the wiring diagram.  The reed is so stiff, the clapper being centered and the lack of a bias spring all seem pretty clear indications that it is NOT a SL ringer despite the clear "SL" marking.  I have to think that between these things and the "C" code on the bottom of the set, that it was mismarked in the factory rather than the ringer having been swapped out.

Interesting. I think you might be onto something regarding the capacitor and ringer motor having been changed while reusing the the ringer frame; it looks like that would be a relatively straightforward change. Your ringer looks just like my 20 cycle ringer with the exception of the clapper size, which would obviously be smaller for a 40~ ringer. I'll bet it'll ring if you are able to put 40 hz AC on it.
My name is Kenn, and I like telephones.

“Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something.” --Robert Heinlein

Alex G. Bell

  • Guest
Re: Leich 100 Series wiring
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2017, 03:06:56 PM »
I compared a WE C4A ringer with the Leich ringer (and took photos) to see whether the WE armature assy could be swapped onto the Leich ringer to convert it to SL, or the whole WE ringer swapped into the Leich telephone set.  Despite close similarities, neither is feasible. 

With 1/16" more clearance here and there the WE ringer would fit but even the Leich ringer is a tight fit under the cradle switch spring and hooklatch mechanism.  The WE armature assy mounts to the ringer frame with a vertical screw while the Leich mounts with a horizontal screw so swapping the armature assy is not feasible either.

It might be possible to remove the WE and Leich armatures with their "reeds" from their mountings by grinding off the staked posts, then drilling and tapping the foot by which they mount to the ringer frame #2-56 or #4-40 and reattaching the WE armature and reed to the Leich foot with machine screws.  I'm not going to do so at this time.

Unfortunately the rubber grommets in the Leich ringer mounting ears were dried out and all the insertion and removal cycles in the very tight space caused them to crack and come off.  The required grommet needs to fit in a 1/4" hole in a 1/8" panel, which is not a standard I can find.  Perhaps four of these 1/4" x 1/16" grommets, two back to back in each foot, each with one flange sliced off, will work.
http://keyelco.com/product.cfm/Rubber-Grommets/733/p/430/id/441/c_id/866/product_id/2731

I'll post the ringer photos if there is interest.