Author Topic: PhotoBucket Ransome Move hits "W.E. 102, 202 and subset easy wiring diagrams" Topic  (Read 678 times)

Offline TelePlay

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You've just bought a telephone on eBay, and it looks like one of the phones below:





Now you want to take your first step to making the phone work.  But which telephone do you have? 

ANOTHER TOPIC LOST TO OFF SITE IMAGING. 20 PHOTOS IN THE FIRST 5 PAGES ARE NOW NO LONGER AVAILABLE DUE TO THE

PHOTOBUCKET RANSOMEWARE DECISSION

Most of the missing images will not be replaced because they were posted in the first two years of the forum's existance and the members posting them have not logged onto the forum in more than 5 years. I doubt they could even find the original images and upload them to the forum as should have been done originally.

I can't stress strong enough how important it is so upload images to the forum instead of use ANY offsite image hosting site.

An this was off the more important topics that still has some information but half of it is now gone forever.
            John . . .

              

Offline TelePlay

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Is it really helpful to dilute the thread with another one of these image procedure 'reminders' ?
You can delete this post if you delete yours.

No, this topic was reported to the moderators by another member and as such required attention in several areas.

Yes, there are a lot of these "reminders" on the forum but keep in mind these "new" reminders are for new or newer members who use external links to post photos. Those are addressed as found, by report or by discovery.

I am getting as tired of writing these as you are of reading them but I hope you understand, they are not for those who have seen them before, they are for newer members who are seeing this for the first time. Especially those who use external links that we fail to catch.
            John . . .

              

Alex G. Bell

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No, this topic was reported to the moderators by another member and as such required attention in several areas.

Yes, there are a lot of these "reminders" on the forum but keep in mind these "new" reminders are for new or newer members who use external links to post photos. Those are addressed as found, by report or by discovery.

I am getting as tired of writing these as you are of reading them but I hope you understand, they are not for those who have seen them before, they are for newer members who are seeing this for the first time. Especially those who use external links that we fail to catch.
It seems to me the forum software needs to be modified so that when someone posts an external link the person who does so gets an error message in real time and the system refuses to put the message out for public consumption.  No other approach to the problem will really solve it, human nature being what it is and given the turnover of people who post to CRPF.  Otherwise it's like enforcing traffic laws.

Offline AE_Collector

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That would be good but many external links aren't pictures so they wouldn't be able to be posted. It could be that blocking external links completely might be the only solution but would cause many more problems.

Terry

Alex G. Bell

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That would be good but many external links aren't pictures so they wouldn't be able to be posted. It could be that blocking external links completely might be the only solution but would cause many more problems.

Terry
Then only block links to image files.

Offline TelePlay

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Then only block links to image files.

That, according to Dennis, can not be done. The permissions can not be that fine tuned. However, after reading this topic posted today which used an external link to images hosted on another site

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=18475.msg190557#msg190557

I found that I had no problem copying the images at the external link, creating a composite for each phone and uploading them to that topic.

That was on my time and I chose to do it once. I've been working on the PhotoBucket links found on the forum. After uploading the images to the above topic and looking at all the lost images, first due to Picasa going defunct and now PhotoBucket demanding ransom for parked images and with the inability of SMF software to do what any member could do on their own, upload images directly to the forum, there seems to be two options to the external image link problems:

1)  Have a Global Moderator send a PM to any member posting an image using an external link telling them to upload the image(s) as forum photos within a few days or risk deletion of the post

     or

2)  Have any Global Moderator summarily delete the post as soon as the external image link is noticed and sending a copy of the deleted post to the member in a PM as notice of deletion.


It is unfair to any Global Moderator to make them do that which any member can do themselves (take, crop, resize and upload photos) and it is totally unfair to all members of the forum to loose excellent, historical telephonic information due to bad image links, regardless of why the link went bad.

I went through all 12 pages of the topic from which this one was split off, at the appropriate request of unbeldi, and found several replies now meaningless due to lost images. Here is just on of those from just that one topic

     http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=784.msg44469#msg44469

The effort was to save any other externally linked images still available that could be copied, saved and uploaded to the post. Much information has been lost due to Picasa and now PhotoBucket so the question on the table is, do you have any thoughts on which one of those two options stated above should be taken going forward to prevent future losses of member provided information.

Or maybe someone has a 3rd or 4th alternative which I really don't see but may be out there.


            John . . .

              

Offline unbeldi

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I went through all 12 pages of the topic from which this one was split off, at the appropriate request of unbeldi, and found several replies now meaningless due to lost images. Here is just on of those from just that one topic

What did I have to do with that ?
I am not aware of that.

Frankly, I don't see the big deal about expiring external images.   The user was helped at the time, well... or not, and time has passed.   So many pictures provided by novice users are not terribly good or interesting anyways.
Are we trying to be the national archives ?
I wouldn't spend time on that endeavor.

Most new users don't refer to old topics apparently anyways and open new questions, and those same questions get answered a million times...
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 08:25:25 PM by unbeldi »

Alex G. Bell

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That, according to Dennis, can not be done.
Certainly it would not be reasonable to expect moderators to assume that massive task. 

Someone with sufficient programming expertise probably could write some kind of script to methodically go through CRPF looking for links to photos and fetching them but I don't have those skills. 

Perhap the authors of the forum software system should be consulted about whether there is some mechanism to block inclusion of links to photos. I don't know what else to suggest. 

But of course the problem of links becoming stale "comes with the territory" (the internet), so the problem is not limited to image files.  OTOH links to a web page can also be used to save and cache the entire web page, although that web page could reference other web pages, so it could become an endless chain.  Most times it probably won't though.

Offline TelePlay

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What did I have to do with that ?
I am not aware of that.

Frankly, I don't see the big deal about expiring external images.   The user was helped at the time, well... or not, and time has passed.   So many pictures provided by novice users are not terribly good or interesting anyways.
Are we trying to be the national archives ?
I wouldn't spend time on that endeavor.

Most new users don't refer to old topics apparently anyways and open new questions, and those same questions get answered a million times...

unbeldi, you asked that my post about broken external links be deleted so as not to dilute the topic. I said no but since all the replies after my "No" replay were off topic, I took your advice and split that discussion off and made it into this topic.

And I have to respectfully disagree with you on the wealth of knowledge found on this forum. There are very few members who have access to the level or amount of information you have and your advice to a question, be it new or repeated for the 20th time, is a valuable and great resource.

New members need help in three main areas:  1) help with their phone problem;  2) help using the forum software;  and 3) learning how to use the search function to explore the forum. The information on the forum will always exist, especially when others can not or are not available to contemporaneously provide a reply.

Most members find the "search" function unusable, and I agree with that until you learn how to use the search function and are able to remember some key words that make the search function work very well. There was a lot of very good and to this day usable information posted on the forum during its first 3 or 4 years. I can find almost anything but that is me who has been using the search function for years and it still takes time, patience and more than one search. I find information and send the links to new members by way of PM saying that if the link if not totally useful, it will give them a basic understanding or knowledge of what they are dealing with. With that help, they can then search on their own and/or ask an intelligent question which you or Alex or any of a dozen other members can help them with rather than having or most knowledgeable members beat the bushes trying to get the member to ask the correct question.

That also helps new users better search the forum on their own. No, we are not the national archives but loosing anything posted in the past that once helped someone in someway is not acceptable in the overall scheme of this forums intention. Not the whole scheme but a good part of it. Contemporary replies to contemporary issues are very helpful and near immediate but I've always wondered how many questions are not asked because the member seeking an answer found it on their own in a very old post. It really is easier to successfully search for and find an answer at 2 in the morning on, say, how to remove a finger wheel remove a stuck 302 housing than that post a question and wait 12 hours to get two or three replies which sometimes differ with each other. If anything, this forum is building a solid base of information and anytime an event occurs that takes away from that which is has already been contributed in sometimes very lengthy topics is an irreversible loss to the forum.



Certainly it would not be reasonable to expect moderators to assume that massive task. 

Someone with sufficient programming expertise probably could write some kind of script to methodically go through CRPF looking for links to photos and fetching them but I don't have those skills. 

Perhap the authors of the forum software system should be consulted about whether there is some mechanism to block inclusion of links to photos. I don't know what else to suggest. 

But of course the problem of links becoming stale "comes with the territory" (the internet), so the problem is not limited to image files.  OTOH links to a web page can also be used to save and cache the entire web page, although that web page could reference other web pages, so it could become an endless chain.  Most times it probably won't though.

Well, I am doing that as we speak and it's not that hard. What's hard is realizing that the images are lost, can't be recovered. Externally linked images that still show up can be copied and saved as uploads and the external link deleted. Doesn't take much to find external links. What to do after that is the issue. Some of the members who have bad links haven't logged onto the forum in over 5 years. If they were out there, would they still have the photos, remember where there were and most of all, take the time to renew all their posts? Doubt that. I have a list of forum topic links with the external link, the member who posted the external link and the date. Great info of little value other than knowing how bad the problem really is.

Current links can be saved by a moderator but is it the moderator's duty to do that given all that has been said about not using external links going back some 6 years now? Members are responsible for their posts and using external links is an irresponsible action.

As for links to something other than externally hosted images, a member posting a link to eBay can easily at least copy a screen capture of the listing showing the item, the seller, the asking price, the date and the item title. I do a few of these every days for members who just post an eBay link. I've seen way to many posts put up in 2008-2010 saying something like "Hey, see this great unfaded Orchid AE40 in NOS condition for sale with a great BIN price?" and then the link and not photos or screen captures. Sure, I'd would have liked to seen that phone back then today but with a dead eBay link, it's gone.

As for non-eBay links, pdf files can be printed and posted as an attachment. Not hard to do at all. And then there is the zip feature on all computers allowing anything to be placed into a zipped folder and attached to a reply - mp3, excel and any type of file not allowed to be directly uploaded fall into this group).

I guess it boils down to how much a member posting something cares about that post being seen on the forum for ever. If anyone thinks that what they post is fleeting or transitory, then you will disagree with the importance of loosing any information posted, regardless of how old. Then, again, we might get hit by several EMP's tomorrow and none of this would matter. Until then, it matters to me out of concern of all member whether they use the knowledge within or not.
            John . . .

              

Alex G. Bell

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As for links to something other than externally hosted images, ...
I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Recently someone posted about restoring their 555 PBX and linked to a purportedly "public" Facebook page where he put all the details.  I was unable to open it without a "join or log in" challenge I could not bypass.  In fact this is not the first time I've tried to open a FB page spoken of as being "public" with the same result.  Since that time I've asked around and as far as I can determine, a "public" Facebook page is a fictionThere is no such thing.

There are FB pages which can be found by searching but not viewed without joining and "private" ones which cannot be found by searching. 

Perhaps it's time to track down that recent 555 PBX restoration project and import it like the OP said he was going to do, since it's not just unavailable in the long run.  It's unavailable right now!  And I'm pretty sure I clicked "notify" and have seen nothing further to indicate the OP has in fact imported it.

Offline unbeldi

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unbeldi, you asked that my post about broken external links be deleted so as not to dilute the topic. I said no but since all the replies after my "No" replay were off topic, I took your advice and split that discussion off and made it into this topic.

And I have to respectfully disagree with you on the wealth of knowledge found on this forum. There are very few members who have access to the level or amount of information you have and your advice to a question, be it new or repeated for the 20th time, is a valuable and great resource.

I made no statement as to any lack of knowledge in the forum, that seems to be the implication.  I pointed out that most topics are repeated many times, so that old missing photos do not significantly impact the help function, especially since they are often hard to find as you pointed out.  In addition, there seems alway someone available to offer new help.


Quote
If anything, this forum is building a solid base of information and anytime an event occurs that takes away from that which is has already been contributed in sometimes very lengthy topics is an irreversible loss to the forum.
The forum format is usually not a good structure to preserve facts and information, despite the many attempts of a few of us who have tabulated various information.  In many threads of discussion it is hard, without expert knowledge, to discern facts from opinion or fiction.  SMF also doesn't have any technical features to enhance this, such as category tags for posts or threads, which would permit hierarchical structuring of content.  The conversational nature is good for ad-hoc problem solving though.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 02:17:39 PM by unbeldi »

Offline TelePlay

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The conversational nature is good for ad-hoc problem solving though.

I fully agree on all points stated.

If I didn't use the best words to express my thought, I apologize. Maybe "the total amount of recorded facts, images, diagrams, procedures and solutions" would have been better. Guilty of over generalization, I guess, in reaction to your "national archives" point.

I personally, not speaking for any other "moderator," may be expecting too much from each member in posting for posterity. I just don't know how to judge inexperience from expecting others to do it for them from just not caring enough to post completely. Many members fully document and support their posts and we can not go back and undo the errors made in the first few years, a time when many thought this forum would not last for more than a few years.

Going forward we've all been working together and doing our best to provide almost instant answers to questions and in a way that does contribute to the knowledge within the forum in total. Others, moderators and/or members may feel the same (or differently) so I am not speaking for them. I am just trying to preserve as much of the forum as I personally can for members both now and in the future. A bit of help from all would be appreciated.

And finally, yes, that last point you made is the best function of the forum, almost immediate replies to any post or reply. The more ad-hoc problem solving, the better the forum becomes overall (and, yes, all mixed in with a lot of casual conversation and points).
            John . . .

              

Alex G. Bell

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I personally, not speaking for any other "moderator," may be expecting too much from each member in posting for posterity. I just don't know how to judge inexperience from expecting others to do it for them from just not caring enough to post completely. Many members fully document and support their posts and we can not go back and undo the errors made in the first few years, a time when many thought this forum would not last for more than a few years.
I think you are expecting too much in the sense that rather than actually being indifferent or expecting someone else to do it, most people have very short term goals and don't even think about the long term implications of where they post information. 

Hoping to change that is IMO overly optimistic.  Even if you constantly post instructions or reminders many people will breeze right past them without even noticing they're there or stopping to read them, even if they are in bold red characters.  I've seen this kind of thing in too many other places to think otherwise.

So unless the forum software can be made to enforce its rules, figure that it's going to happen.  Only a software system can make it happen reliably.

Offline TelePlay

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I think you are expecting too much in the sense that rather than actually being indifferent or expecting someone else to do it, most people have very short term goals and don't even think about the long term implications of where they post information. 

Hoping to change that is IMO overly optimistic.  Even if you constantly post instructions or reminders many people will breeze right past them without even noticing they're there or stopping to read them, even if they are in bold red characters.  I've seen this kind of thing in too many other places to think otherwise.

So unless the forum software can be made to enforce its rules, figure that it's going to happen.  Only a software system can make it happen reliably.

Yes, the eternal optimist, I guess. But I do know one thing, by not doing anything, it won't get better by itself.

I agree with you about members seeing this as a casual exchange of whatever. No problem with that and some if it is actually enjoyable to read. And, I have seen members change, learn, be more diligent in posting so that gives me hope that things can and are changing for the better, if just a bit and at a snails pace.

As for forum software enforcing the rules, that was taken care of by the programmers. They created the Global Moderator.
            John . . .

              

Alex G. Bell

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As for forum software enforcing the rules, that was taken care of by the programmers. They created the Global Moderator.
Well that's too bad but not surprising.  Some things (actual content) require the judgement of a moderator and cannot be rules-based.  Other things, such as location of files, are inherently tedious, time consuming and better done in real time by enforcing rules rather than afterwards as "a mopping up operation". 

Someone ought to at least put this in as a wish list item with the authors of the forum software.