Author Topic: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.  (Read 1616 times)

Offline digoxy118

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Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« on: August 29, 2017, 11:25:52 AM »

 I have decided to build a 1a2 system to play with and after reading endless amounts of information on the web about these systems I decided on a WE system, which one is the question really. I like the 4 Line 551, but not sure what limitations this would have with the actual phones and number of phones I can use.

 Ordered and just had delivered a 551C from eBay, I have picked up a few phones and am still looking at some options to learn what I can about these old systems. I could see having up to 10 phones to play with here so not sure if the 551 is going to allow me to get where I want to be. Should I get a 6-10 line KSU? I think the 551 would be a great start what are your thoughts?

 The 551C KSU I purchased was listed on eBay and pictured with a cover, however, the cover didn't come with the KSU, I am in process of trying to negotiate this to obtain a cover, if not, its going back to the seller unless he can make it worth keeping. It was advertised as a "CAB B", I am not sure if this means it was secondary behind a primary KSU/PBX and if the wiring would be different. This KSU looks like it could be a lot of fun, it has two SAN/BAR 4k KTU's and these direct line or I guess they are hotline KTU's 415A and 415B. Not sure how this all works, but, I hope I can keep this one to play with.

 With the 551C KSU, can you use both multiline Rotary and Touch Tone phones?
 I have ordered a 66block with a 25 pair amphenol connector prewired, is this a bear to connect to this 551?
 Ordered a 66block punch down tool, I havent owned one of these in 30 years!
 
 I have a list of phones here, please let me know if indeed these should work, if you know ok!
 - WE 565HKM
 - WE(?) 564HD(sticker). Under this sticker label is A/B 565H* I-60.
 - ITT 2564 13 BA 40 M 3 83 (I have a couple more of these phones that look like this one coming).

 All of these phones have the multi line 6 buttons with the hold button. They really look like a lot of fun! I really want to hear them ring.

 
 

 


Offline rdelius

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2017, 02:24:41 PM »
The telephones ringing comes from the common audible output of the ksu.I do not know if the 551 cabinet power supply has a ringing generator or a low voltage buzzer  out
have lots of 25 pr cable with amp connectors that plug into the keysets.I and 66 blocks.  have some parts sets ,mostly ITT and tone. Your ksu will work with both. It only matters if you have a dial or tone intercom module or a 207 rotary intercom.you have neither.

Victor Laszlo

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2017, 07:57:45 PM »
Here are the answers:

The 551 C KSU can handle 4 CO lines, or any combination of 4 CO, PBX, manual intercom, or tie lines, with some slight re-wiring of the KSU.  It can handle at least the number of rotary or DTMF phones you wish to install. The SanBar 4000F KTU's are some of the best ones that you can use. The 415's are tie-line cards.

"Cab B" was probably written on the cover when it was in service, to distinguish it from cabinet A, in an installation that had more than one KSU. That info is meaningless to you as the new owner, and cabinet is the wrong word for what you have.

For the feature called "common audible" (CA) the KSU requires the addition of a 118A frequency generator (best choice, because it fits inside the KSU, but difficult to find) or the generator (90V - 20 or 30 Hz) output from any typical key system power supply, such as a WE 20B2 or an Elgin equivalent, such as the EAK-4 model. In the absence of the local generator supply, you will not be able to have each phone ring on more than one CO line. You will be able to get one CO line to ring per telephone ringer.

A 66M block e/w (equipped with) an amphenol will not be of much use, unless you only want to connect one telephone. An M block has only 4 rows of pins, but a 66B25 version has 6 rows.

The more professional and logical installation scheme would be to extend the inputs (4 pairs) on a 4-pair wire, and the outputs (up to 25 pairs) using one 25-pair cable, terminating it on the first row of pins on a 66B25 block.  The 25-pair cables to the phones (5 maximum using the 66B25) would be terminated on the other 5 pins of the 66B25.  A larger installation will require additional 66B25 blocks, or a different cross-connection scheme.

There is no dial-selective intercom capability built into the KSU. You can lose one CO line and install a manual intercom, using a 401-type KTU, and create a manual button&buzzer system for signalling.

The 415-type KTU's have value to collectors and operators, and you might be able to defray your original costs by de-acquisitioning them. They were installed when the KSU was in service to create a hot-line type of connection between this KSU and a distant one, or a distant SLT. (single line telephone station).

You should search for, and print out, BSP 518-215-407 which will be your guide on getting your system installed.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 08:59:12 PM by Victor Laszlo »

Offline Babybearjs

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 10:03:36 PM »
well.... at least I'm not the only one who like key equipment... I have a WE 551C in storage for replacement of my 1A1 system if that ever dies.... I also have a San-bar 6610 that handles all 5 lines PLUS an intercom.... I've been searching for a 407C KTU but haven't found one yet....  so my intercom on that unit is a 401A manual unit.... this KTS is also in storage in the event I ever need it.... having a 4 line system with a whole house intercom is really nice. good luck with your project, you'll really like have the options available to you once its up and running.
John

Offline digoxy118

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 11:10:55 PM »

 Hey babybearjs, I have embarked on this project and plan to see it through! I am only just now starting to get an idea of how this stuff works and its already very exciting. You should pull that unit out and maybe we could get these going at the same time, would make for some good conversation.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 11:17:17 PM »
For the feature called "common audible" (CA) the KSU requires the addition of a 118A frequency generator (best choice, because it fits inside the KSU, but difficult to find) or the generator (90V - 20 or 30 Hz) output from any typical key system power supply, such as a WE 20B2 or an Elgin equivalent, such as the EAK-4 model. In the absence of the local generator supply, you will not be able to have each phone ring on more than one CO line. You will be able to get one CO line to ring per telephone ringer.



I agree that without the optional 118A frequency generator, or another similar source, the ringers in the sets can be used only as "line ringers," that is, the ringer in any set can be connected to only one line.

However, "common audible" signaling is possible with a 551C KSU as pictured, by using buzzers instead of ringers. An incoming call on any of 4 lines requires a single 10 VAC buzzer per telephone.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline digoxy118

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2017, 12:14:30 AM »
 Victor, thanks for the awesome reply and taking the time to write that out. I cant tell you how much I appreciate your help. I do have so many questions just getting started with this and not knowing much at all about this stuff that some of the questions i come up with surely are trivial. If at any point, please feel absolutely free to correct me on terminology or anything you feel needs attention, you cannot hurt my feelings, I am here to learn and I appreciate you taking the time.
 
 So, this supports both Dial tone and rotary, that is good to know. I am planning to use a BlueTooth cell gateway to feed into CO-1. If I am reading the 551C Practice correctly, this would go directly into the 66block 43 and 44. expanding on this a bit, what you have written has clarified something I didnt realize, showing just how much I dont know, I didnt realize I could use more than 4 phones on the KSU, but, this makes sense, I should be able to hook up any number of phones as long as the PS can handle the lamps and signalling to each of the phones, is that right?

 If I wanted to, can I use the KTU415A and KTU415B to work as a direct link to say line 3 and line 4? so, if I pick up Line3 from one phone it would ring line4? This is somewhat confusing to me how this would work. If its just the same to remove them, I can do that and look for a couple more SB4k's.

 Do each of the KTU's align with each of the CO Lines? In other words, there are 4 slots for KTU's, should I have the 400D in the correct slot that corresponds with CO-Line 1? The KTU Slots are numbered J1-J4, do these correspond to each of the C0 inputs/outputs. (J1, C01, block 43-44)?

 CAB-B concerns me only if by the possible chance something has been rewired in this KSU to make something happen with CAB-A, maybe I am being paranoid but looking on the back side of the KSU, I see different types of wires which makes me think there may be some special something happening here. I will get a picture of this and get your thoughts.

 As for a 118A frequency generator, it appears the KSU has one installed. After reading your message, I actually picked up another one I had seen on eBay, so, I have another one coming as a spare in case this one for some reason does not work. So, with that, I should have the ring generator sorted out. I am not sure if I understand how this works through ringing phones, if C01 triggers, it does not ring all phones as would seem right, not enough power I guess. So what determines which phone will ring?

 I have been on study time with this new bible, the 551C KSU Practice. Much of the practice terminology and many of the diagrams are Greek to me. I can somewhat understand what its saying to do, but the why's keep creeping up on me.

  Can you explain how these amphenol connectors are supposed to connect to KSU? Should I have a single amphenol that comes out of this box and split from there to feed say 4-5 phones? How traditionally is this done? Should I run the 25 pair from the internal block to another external block that contains more rows, like you have mentioned a 6 row 66B25, then connect like 4 amphenol's to this and then expand over to another 66B25 to have another 5? A general diagram of how this would hook up would be so helpful I think.

 How would the dial selective work? if using a 401-type KTU, can you then "dial" an internal line to another internal phone? I may need to come back to this question later, I am not sure if I fully understand what dial selective entails. If say I dont have any CO lines (incoming phone lines from the telephone company), could I if I used a "401 type KTU" use the phones completely independent and dial from one to the other?

 Thanks for the assistance, I am sure one I get down the general thought process of how this goes together I will be in much better shape.
 

 

 



 

 

Offline digoxy118

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2017, 12:27:24 AM »

 Hello Poplar, thanks for joining in. I know I do need some more real deep understanding of how this ringing works, I dont think I would be using this outside of a single room, but, would like to know what it is capable of and explore different methods of making it all work nicely together.

 I know I have read a lot about the buzzers and for the most part, I think many people remember these from working with these phones and recall the buzzer sound and want to hear that great buzz again, you know, like catching a buzz or something!

 The simple truth is, I am somewhat in the same boat here. When I was very young, possibly 3-4 years old, my grandfather had a multiline phone in his house, I think it was a 4 line, very possibly a 1a system, not real sure however, the lights on this phone mesmerized me and to this day I believe that this living room phone with these illuminating flashing beacons are the main reason I went down the technical side of things, always curious and taking stuff a part from a very early age. I had a lashing over and over for removing my dads turntable to play with the gears.

 :)

Offline digoxy118

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2017, 12:32:16 AM »

 Oh, just to make sure I am not dropping the ball, this is the 118A frequency generator correct?


Offline poplar1

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2017, 09:59:19 AM »
Oh, just to make sure I am not dropping the ball, this is the 118A frequency generator correct?



No, that is the interrupter. It causes the lamps to flash (60 intervals per minute) for incoming call or wink (120 IPM) for hold. Also interrupts the common audible (buzzer or ringer) cadence of 1 second on, 3 seconds off.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline digoxy118

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2017, 10:10:56 AM »
 Hey Poplar, thanks for the clarification on the 118a, just found one one on eBay. Would be nice to find the mounting bracket as well.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 12:13:23 PM by digoxy118 »

Victor Laszlo

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2017, 07:28:00 PM »
Starting off in the hobby trying to understand the key system arena will be a bit difficult, because you do not yet have the more basic understanding of general telephony. But, your questions and understanding, so far, indicates that you are starting to get it quite nicely. 

Here are some basic concepts for you to learn: Please be aware that there are people on this forum who delight in finding errors in my messages, and pointing out the exceptions to many things I write. I have promised the moderators not to rise to the bait. I can assure you that with 55 years of playing and working with phones, I know enough not to mislead you. Please understand that the Bell System, (aka The Phone Company, aka "TPC") in its infinite wisdom, backed up with infinite bank accounts, designed the system for the best possible results. 

There are economic, social, ergonomic and electrical reasons for everything they did.

Central offices send ringing current (aka "generator") at a cadence of 2 seconds ON, 4 seconds OFF.   This is true of most landline CO's in North America.  A typical household during the second half of the 20th century had one or two telephones. Subscribers were encouraged to answer no later than ten rings. (One minute) Once answering machines and then voice mail were invented, the expectation was to have a call answered after 4 rings.  TPC reasoned that an unanswered call was a call that did not produce revenue.  Business calls generate more revenue.  Therefore, key system and PBX interrupters (in business systems) were designed to provide ringing cadences such as 1 second ON, 3 seconds OFF. This, along with discordant gongs on ringers, rather than harmonious ones, producing what TPC called "urgency" was a way to ensure that calls, especially business calls, were answered more quickly. For people used to answering on the 4th ring at home, (24 seconds) a call in their office would be answered on the 4th ring of the key system, or 16 seconds. It all had to do with the efficiency of the called party and the patience of the calling party.

So, we come to the different ringing options in a 1A2 system. Another member pointed out that buzzers can be used in lieu of ringers. True enough, but in 55 years of telephone work, I saw three systems out of probably 10,000 that used buzzers rather than ringers for line service (as opposed to intercom service.)

These statements refer specifically to 1A2 telephones and systems:

1.  You can directly wire each telephone ringer to ring on one CO line. 4 lines, 4 telephones, 4 ringers. Each telephone will ring on a particular line, and no other.  This scheme is called "line ringers"

2.  You can add external ringers, which mount on the wall near a desk, and those can be wired to ring on one CO line each.

In the previous two examples, the ringers are activated by ringing current, aka generator, from the CO.  There are certain ways of wiring them at the KSU, or inside the telephone to provide this service.  The ringers will follow the CO ringing cadence, 2 ON 4 OFF.

3.  You can wire the KSU to provide a local generator supply, as discussed, from the 118A freq gen, or another source. The interrupter in the KSU will send 1 ON 3 OFF to any ringer connected to the pins in the KSU that are appropriate.  The brackets for the 118A are made of a rare isotope of UNobtainium.  A wire tie will hold them into the KSU just as well as a bracket.

In this scheme, you can have the ringers respond to generator ( through the interrupter) for multiple lines. One, 2, 3, 4 or none.

4.  Selective ringing using a diode matrix.

In this scheme, the ringers can be wired in permutations of the 4 lines, with any combination ringing on any ringer.






« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 08:55:44 PM by Victor Laszlo »

Victor Laszlo

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2017, 07:33:17 PM »
Quote
I should be able to hook up any number of phones as long as the PS can handle the lamps and signalling to each of the phones, is that right?

Correct. The limit is the lamp current draw. Large systems use lamp extenders, either relay-based or solid state, to allow many more phones.

Quote
If I wanted to, can I use the KTU415A and KTU415B to work as a direct link to say line 3 and line 4? so, if I pick up Line3 from one phone it would ring line4? This is somewhat confusing to me how this would work. If its just the same to remove them, I can do that and look for a couple more SB4k's.

That's almost the way they work, but they are intended to interconnect remote systems. Let's not use those or talk about them yet. Best to remove them and put them in a box. Patience, patience...

Quote
Do each of the KTU's align with each of the CO Lines? In other words, there are 4 slots for KTU's, should I have the 400D in the correct slot that corresponds with CO-Line 1? The KTU Slots are numbered J1-J4, do these correspond to each of the C0 inputs/outputs. (J1, C01, block 43-44)?

Correct

Quote
I see different types of wires which makes me think there may be some special something happening here. I will get a picture of this and get your thoughts.

Hmmm. Those wires concern me.  You may have bought a field-modified unit.  There are simple reasons to modify the back-wiring, and there are silly reasons. Time will tell. I will help you walk through the possibilities and retro-fits.

Quote
As for a 118A frequency generator, it appears the KSU has one installed. After reading your message, I actually picked up another one I had seen on eBay, so, I have another one coming as a spare in case this one for some reason does not work. So, with that, I should have the ring generator sorted out. I am not sure if I understand how this works through ringing phones, if C01 triggers, it does not ring all phones as would seem right, not enough power I guess. So what determines which phone will ring?

We already touched slightly on this topic. We'll get back to it later.

Quote
I have been on study time with this new bible, the 551C KSU Practice. Much of the practice terminology and many of the diagrams are Greek to me. I can somewhat understand what its saying to do, but the why's keep creeping up on me.

It's a new language. Your questions are astute and well thought out.  All will be revealed to the diligent student. Trust me.

 
Quote
Can you explain how these amphenol connectors are supposed to connect to KSU? Should I have a single amphenol that comes out of this box and split from there to feed say 4-5 phones? How traditionally is this done? Should I run the 25 pair from the internal block to another external block that contains more rows, like you have mentioned a 6 row 66B25, then connect like 4 amphenol's to this and then expand over to another 66B25 to have another 5? A general diagram of how this would hook up would be so helpful I think.

Installing a 1A2 system can be an art form. There are rules about specific practices, but the overall installation can take many forms.  Any of the suggestions you cite are acceptable.  It depends upon the ultimate goal...just a few phones to demonstrate your cool toys, or a larger and more complex system. Even in the field, an installer was given latitude in his design, depending upon the possibility of expansion.



« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 07:46:58 PM by Victor Laszlo »

Victor Laszlo

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2017, 08:17:43 PM »
Quote
How would the dial selective work? if using a 401-type KTU, can you then "dial" an internal line to another internal phone? I may need to come back to this question later, I am not sure if I fully understand what dial selective entails. If say I don't have any CO lines (incoming phone lines from the telephone company), could I if I used a "401 type KTU" use the phones completely independent and dial from one to the other?

I have started a new post to discuss the various intercom options.

1.  Manual signalling.   Boss pushes a button on his phone, and a buzzer activates on the secretary's desk (or vice versa) or at other locations, if there are more than one button. Secretary/employee performs a pre-arranged task. No voice connection, therefore no need for a KTU plugged in.

2.  Manual intercom.  Boss or anyone presses a key to access a voice link, the key lights up on all phones e/w (equipped with) that link, then presses a momentary button, and a buzzer or ringer activates at the secretary's/others' desks.  Guy at the other end picks up the same link, and converses. Requires a battery feed, which can be any one of several devices. In your case, a 401A or B KTU.

3.  Dial selective intercom. (DICM...pronounced exactly as you might suspect.)  Pulse or DTMF.  As the name implies, anyone with a DICM key presses the dedicated key for DICM, and dials a single- or multiple-digit code. A buzzer activates at the selected station. The called person answers and a conversation ensues.  Others may listen in and talk.  Equipment will not plug into or fit inside the 551 KSU. The ICM's can be plug-in cards that go into larger KSU's or they can be stand-alone little boxes. Google "Teltone" or "Melco" Intercom.

4. Enhanced DICM.  Features can be added to the above scheme to provide dial tone, busy tone, machine ringing, privacy, call-waiting, camp-on, etc etc etc.  Western Electric and the competitors made them.

« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 08:35:38 PM by Victor Laszlo »

Offline Weco355aman

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Re: Making the Jump 1A2 Western Electric.
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2017, 08:46:24 PM »
Hi digoxy118
I 100% agree with Victor, 1A2 is a simple concept but you do need to have some basic understanding. I got my 1st 1A2 at 14 1/2, at that time there was no public info, late 1970's. I had to figure it out on may own, today the internet has a lot of great info and also some bad info. I recommend first to connecting 1 line and one phone to get a understanding, if you try to wire up the entire system at the 1st time you may frustrate yourself. Locate the 25 Pair color code (Google) and print it out, the 1st line only needs 6 (1st 3 pairs) wires connected between the phone and the 551 (KSU)  the telephone line is only 2 wires, The rotary and ITT 2564 will not be concerned about the polarity of the phone line going to the line card (400)type KTU. The Western Electric phones will not dial out if the line polarity is reversed. I would hold off on the intercom until you have a better understanding of the system, The ITT 1a2 key manuals are simpler than the BSP's for basic understanding. The BSP was trained tech's, the beginners had simple layout and learned from lab instructors and senior installers, As Victor said there was a reason for everything. No one will be critical of you learning. Enjoy you self. P.S. I may have the 118 mounting bracket.   Phil         
Phil