Author Topic: Problems with Gray Western 150G  (Read 3600 times)

Offline Haf

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2017, 11:58:24 PM »
I couldn't sleep so I got up and changed the dial. Now I know for sure that the dialing problem was indeed a dial problem. I have a fully working phone now, I can make calls, receive calls, bells ring, receiver and transmitter quality is as expected for  1931 phone. Very nice, thank you for your help!

Now this phone only has to become a working payphone again :)

Stan,
I wired the controller like the  150 G diagram in the payphone controller instruction book. I connected the yellow wire from the controller to GND on the terminal strip as there is a wire going from there to the coin trigger switch screw. (I took some pictures, shown in my first post here) I will now align the  top and bottom transfer contacts first before any further tests.

Haf
Telephone:
0049-030-55474418
001-415-449-4743

Offline Stan S

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2017, 08:13:21 AM »
Haf
Excellent!
It should be all down hill from now on.
Stan S.

Offline Haf

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2017, 08:29:30 AM »
I now took the bottom of, well, more easy than I thought, it was attached only with two tiny srews from the back. Think I will "borrow" some screws from another payphone when remouning it. Took a picture.
At the moment I'm trying to adjust the saw tooth contacts. Took pictures too.
I had to but the bottom next to the phone while working on it because there are two wires soldered to what I think is a safety mechanism I never saw before. Seems that you have to lock the vault door and then they make contact. So far, haven't located this on the diagram.

But I noticed something-  when inserting coin, only the very small lever moves from the coin relay, nothing else. I need an expert in coin relays now. Made a youtube video in slow motion showing what happens when coin is inserted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yyBTktE6SQ&feature=youtu.be

Back at my work bench now,

Haf
Telephone:
0049-030-55474418
001-415-449-4743

Offline Stan S

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2017, 09:40:10 AM »
Haf
You're lucky that all the mounting screws weren't in the phone. Over time those screws get so tight that you sometimes have to grind off the heads to get the bottom off. The two extra wires are for the vault alarm. Most of the time that switch has been taken out of the phone. That switch assembly is very rare.
The vault alarm is on the diagram under the coin relay. Has two slate wires going to it.

After a coin is dropped in the hopper and hits the coin trigger of the relay, the trigger should stay in the down position and not flip back up. After voltage is applied to the electromagnets the armature will move either left or right and the coin trigger will flip back up. The coin trigger is what determines if the switch contacts on the right side of the relay are open or closed.

A long time ago a guy with WAY TO MUCH FREE TIME wrote an article about how Western Electric double coil coin relays works. See:

http://atcaonline.com/coinrelay.html

The design of that relay is 100 years old. It's very mechanically inefficient. Lots of spring tension to overcome. Lots of metal that has to be moved and lots of adjustments that must be made for the coin relay to operate properly.

Stan S.

Offline dsk

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2017, 10:54:58 AM »
Stan; nice article!
Haf; It is not easy to tell but is contact no 1 and 2 almost touching each other?


dsk

I have even got a regular New York number :-) 646 570 1796

Offline Stan S

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2017, 11:44:14 AM »
dsk
Thank you.

The double coil coin relay design is actually much more than 100 years old. It is identical to the mechanism in the Western Electric 7J coin collector. See attached.

The original patent for the Gray/Western Electric 50A 3-slot uses the same shaped coil spring assembly as the 7J. The shape of that spring assembly was abandoned after a few years. The redesigned assembly was used up until the end of the double coil coin relays. See Haf's photo.

From the picture it appears the position of the #2 saw tooth contact isn't correct. These problems seem complicated but the fix is usually very simple.

Stan S.

Offline Haf

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2017, 12:34:53 PM »
Maybe was only the angle, took another picture from almost inside the phone...astonishing what modern smartphones can take for pictures.
That adjusting drove me almost insane, took of the bottom about 4 times and back. Always seemed to be ok but then..when everything put back together wasn't. At least it should be ok now :)
Will put it back on the wall and then taking care of the next problem, the controller.

Haf
Telephone:
0049-030-55474418
001-415-449-4743

Offline Stan S

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2017, 01:10:02 PM »
Haf
Transfer contacts look perfect.
 
The coin trigger of the relay didn't appear to be working properly.

The arm that rests on the trigger is what moves the switch contacts on the right side of the frame. There's a flat spring on the left side of the switch assembly that puts pressure on the end of the arm that has the roller. When the coin trigger flips down the arm moves down which moves the arm, the roller and then the switch contacts. When the arm is down the contacts are closed. That's what connects the high voltage to the electromagnets of the relay. When the high voltage is applied to the electromagnets depending on the polarity, the armature will either return or collect the coins in the hopper. When the armature moves back to the horizontal position the coin trigger flips back up and once again supports the end of the arm after the voltage is removed. Nothing to it...........SURE!
Usually takes HOURS to get the darn things to work reliably!!

Stan S.

Offline Stan S

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2017, 04:53:02 PM »
Haf
Photos of the coin trigger in both positions. It's a little hard to see the difference. There is very little movement of the coin trigger in operation.

Offline Haf

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2017, 05:27:36 PM »
Stan,

it seems that the arm is somehow stuck, And the spring on the left (when looking at the front of the ralay) looks a little twisted, you can see that in my pictures. I will carefully examine tomorrow. By the way, the coinrelay looks almost new, newer than  the rest.

At the moment the phone is back on the wall, works fine as "normal" phone but still don't with the controller. No dial tone, no bells ringing when called-only a short soft twitch at the beginning of the ringing cycle . But as I understood your explanation right, if the coin relay is stuck in the wrong position it's maybe permanent connected to GND or not at all, one of the two. That is why the controller is confused somehow.

But as the way it's going so far, I'm quite optimistic that I will have a working 150 G at the end. Thank you very much for your help.

Haf
Telephone:
0049-030-55474418
001-415-449-4743

Offline Stan S

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2017, 10:14:21 PM »
"it seems that the arm is somehow stuck, And the spring on the left (when looking at the front of the ralay) looks a little twisted, you can see that in my pictures."

Haf
I enlarged your picture of the front of the relay as much as was possible. I can not figure out what that twisted piece of metal is. It doesn't appear to be a part of the contact assembly. Compare your picture to the line drawing below. That twisted piece seems to be something that got caught in the switch assembly. Very carefully try and pull it out without bending any of the contact leaves or the flat spring.

Stan S.

Offline Stan S

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2017, 10:37:02 PM »
Haf
Just enlarged your photo on another computer. The twisted piece of metal seems to have disappeared.
 
It's hard to tell from the angle your picture was taken but it appears the flat spring isn't pushing against the bent part of the arm. That means the contacts aren't touching. That's the reason the controller is doing nothing and the coin trigger isn't staying in the proper position.

You will have to very carefully bend the flat spring to the right. This will apply pressure against the contact assembly, closing the contacts. This adjustment is very tricky!

WARNING! Don't do this with the controller connected. If the controller decides to fire the relay and you happen to have your fingers in the contacts, you will NOT like the result!

Stan S.

Offline Stan S

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2017, 10:51:17 PM »
Haf.
See below.
Stan S.

Offline Haf

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2017, 07:28:39 AM »
Stan,
started today with my try to adjust the relay. Ok, that's th result so far:

Picture one, no coin, hard to see but no contakt between inner and outer ground contact spring. Controller shows power light only.

Picture two, coin inserted, contact between inner and outer ground contact spring, controller shows three lights, after 60 seconds jumps from return light to collect light but..no dial tone, and no firing the relay.


Ahh, and with twisted looking blade/metal I meant the coin trigger lever spring...someone has tried to bend before.

I don't know why the pictures are turned sideways...tried two times but always same result, sorry for that.

Haf
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 07:38:51 AM by Haf »
Telephone:
0049-030-55474418
001-415-449-4743

Offline poplar1

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Re: Problems with Gray Western 150G
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2017, 11:45:17 AM »
I couldn't sleep so I got up and changed the dial. Now I know for sure that the dialing problem was indeed a dial problem.

Haf, are you certain that the spade tip of the yellow wire was not touching the bottom contact spring on the dial?

Stan, did they make a dial cord (harness) with a longer white lead for use with a 2H, 4H or 5H dial? This cord appears to have been made for a 2A dial (Y BK BB W).

Stan's diagram shows the BB and R terminals strapped together (on the dial) when using an H dial.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 11:54:24 AM by poplar1 »
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