Author Topic: Orange County Independan t Pay Station Sign  (Read 277 times)

Offline rfkimba

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Orange County Independan t Pay Station Sign
« on: October 07, 2017, 02:26:16 AM »
I was sign shopping on Ebay and came across this outstanding condition 15x15 Orange County Pay Station.  I luckily was able to negociate a significant  lower price than the listed  sold for  price for this beauty. I've usually  seen this sign  before in much rougher condition although there is a similiar condition one in one of Michael Bruner's books on porcelain advertising. 

Can anyone comment on the date this was produced. There is moderate porcelain ledging . Photos of others of the same design note circa 1940's.
Any Thoughts?
Thanks,

Bob Farber
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 02:30:39 AM by rfkimba »

Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: Orange County Independan t Pay Station Sign
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2017, 11:32:12 AM »
That I know of there are at least 3 states with Orange Counties. California, Florida, New York, maybe more. Not from California at least I've never seen one and been here since 1957. My guess New York, the seller is in Pennsylvania.

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Online Fabius

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Re: Orange County Independan t Pay Station Sign
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2017, 11:49:47 AM »
This sign has been reproduced. Two fake versions. One an easily identified enamel paint job and the other a much better quality fake. Made by a guy with access to a ceramic manufacturing facility in Argentina.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 10:37:50 AM by Fabius »
Tom Vaughn
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Offline rfkimba

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Re: Orange County Independant Pay Station Sign REpro??
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2017, 02:29:54 AM »
Hi Tom and Rotary Phone Forum members,
 I consider you a telephone sign expert and I a relative newcomer who desires to learn with a minimum of costly mistakes. I  need to ask how can you determine this sign to be a well done reproduction?
I used as my reference Michael Bruner's book on Porcelain Enamel Advertising(see p25 photo attached) for a well preserved example of this sign and Alexander's Guide to PorcelainEnamel Telephone Signs p25. My sign  appears to match Bruner's specimen exactly in color and font   . There is moderate porcelain ledging as well as a very sloppy porcelain reverse. There were other examples I found online at Pininterest(see attached) that appear to match my sign and this textbook photo .
Do you have have this sign and if so can you kindly supply photos that can help me understand why you feel this is not an original as advertised? Do  you know of any other collector that may have this sign so I can see the difference between an original such  what is highlighted in Bruner's book and  my sign.
I do realize the adage if it appears to be too good a deal it is probably a fake. The sign is rare but I have seen rough copies for sale on Ebay in the past. The seller has excellent feedback and may not be aware either.
Does anyone else have any copies of this sign and if so please post photos for my reference. 
Thank you for your assistance.
Sincerely,
Bob Farber ATCA, TCI
6093354387

« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 02:53:56 AM by rfkimba »

Online Fabius

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Re: Orange County Independant Pay Station Sign REpro??
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2017, 08:00:17 PM »
To know for sure I would need to see the sign. I only mentioned the two types of repros as a FYI, not as a comment on your sign. If you can get to a show or to a sign collector compare the feel and look of yours with signs of the same age. Where are you located?
Tom Vaughn
La Porte, Indiana
ATCA Past President
ATCA #765
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Online AL_as_needed

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Re: Orange County Independan t Pay Station Sign
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2017, 08:15:22 PM »
Being I am close enough to throw something at Orange County NY....

I highly doubt that Orange County NY would have had an independent telco. While there are a few major localities (small cities like Newburgh and Middletown), at that time it would have been largely rural in general and is rather mountainous in the southern half. While not impossible, I feel there would simply not be the population to support an independent tellco when so close to major centers like NYC and Albany.  I do know Ma Bell and later New York Bell/ NYTEL were dominant on the eastern side of the Hudson Valley since the 30s as my grandmother was a switchboard operator in Putnam county.

Orange county did however have a local soda brand Pepsi Cola, that is still a local favorite  ;)
TWinbrook7

Offline rfkimba

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Re: Orange County Independan t Pay Station Sign
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2017, 12:17:42 AM »
Hi Tom and All Forum members,
I reside in Middletown, DE and do not know any local sign experts although Phila , Southeastern PA, Eastern Md and Southern NJ are within an hours drive. Any suggestions Tom?
I assume the sign is from Orange County Calif as the sign on p25 of  Michael Bruner's Book Encyclopedia of Porcelain Enamel Advertising is a 15x15 from Orange County Calif. There is a picture of a 16x16 version from Texas in A Collector's Guide to Antique Porcelain Enamel Telephone Signs V3 p145 by Bob Alexander.
Anyone out there  have an original Orange  County Telephone Sign they can photograph and share?
Thanks
Bob Farber

Offline Sargeguy

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Re: Orange County Independan t Pay Station Sign
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2017, 08:20:03 PM »
I know the forgeries from Argentina are really good, I think he also makes Lincoln Telephone Co. signs as well. 
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
TCI /ATCA #4409

Online Fabius

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Re: Orange County Independan t Pay Station Sign
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 02:32:42 PM »
I received this sign from Bob today. Here is my response to him:

Hello Bob,

I received the sign this morning. I believe it is a fake. I say fake and not a reproduction because I believe it was made with the intention of deceiving buyers.

The first thing I noticed is that the sign wobbles, that is it bends. I have never seen that in a real telephone porcelain sign. It appears the steel is thin thus allowing the sign to bend.

The sign seems lighter than a sign made in the 1900 -1940 era. Though about the same as 1950s signs I have.

The following causes suspicion but not necessarily proof itís a fake:

One sided with no flange. A flanged sign is more complex to make.
No grommets.

I have to admit I am not an expert and cannot say with 100% certainty that the sign is a fake. But as a knowledgeable sign collector I would not buy it. I am 95% sure itís a fake.
Tom Vaughn
La Porte, Indiana
ATCA Past President
ATCA #765
C*NET 1+ 821-9905

Offline Sargeguy

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Re: Orange County Independan t Pay Station Sign
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 05:18:28 PM »
Did you pay with PayPal?  If so I think you are protected.
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
TCI /ATCA #4409

Online GTE Rick

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Re: Orange County Independan t Pay Station Sign
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2017, 11:32:37 PM »
Currently there are several Independent telephone companies in orange county New York, Frontier(former GTE, Contel and Highland Telephone exchanges), Warwick Vally Telephone Company etc.

There was an Orange County Telephone Company listed the 1963 edition of "Telephony's Directory of the telephone industry.  It lists the exchanges as Bloomingburg, Circleville, Denton, Howels, Middletown, Otisville, State Hill, and Wurtsboro.  It also lists its management as "same as General Tel Co of Upstate New York."

Currently all of the above exchanges are owned by Frontier Communications of New York . Except the Howels & State Hill exchanges that are not listed with the North American Number Plan Administration(NAMPA).

Orange County Tel Co.  was purchased and rolled into General Telephone of Upstate New York.
General Telephone sold it's New York operations to Continental Telephone. Continental became CONTEL.
Contel merged with GTE. GTE sold it's NY operations to Citizens Communications, Citizens purchased Frontier (formerly Rochester Telephone in NY) and changed its name to Frontier.

Now as for the sign... I have no idea if it is real or fake but they were at least "reporting" the "Orange County Telephone Co" name in 1963.  I am suspicious of the "THE" ....

That doesn't mean much as NANPA still listed the Port Byron Telephone Company, but if you go to one of there exchanges, The Business office, directories, Payphone(when they had them) is show the name TDS Telecom their current owner.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 12:25:00 PM by GTE Rick »
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Offline rfkimba

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Re: Orange County Independent Pay Station Sign
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 12:28:03 AM »
Dear Collectors:
I would like to thank you for your collective feedback wrt to the Orange County sign.
 My personal thanks to Tom Vaughn who took the time to personally examine and ship back to me the sign with his written opinion as to why it was a reproduction. Tom pointed out the sign thickness was the major red flag allowing it to bend. Interestingly I measured the thickness of all my porcelain  signs and the older ones were about 2mm . The more recent ones from the 50's were 1.5 mm or less. The fake was 1 mm thick.
Since I  challenged the purchase more than 30 days after Ebay  purchase the Ebay Guarantee was no longer valid but the Paypal 180 day "not as represented" policy held.  :) :) However I was required to "prove" my claim it was a fake and used the validation  of the Forum information interchange along with Tom Vaughn's detailed  reasoning it was a repro.  I just received my refund including Ebay shipping.
Muchas Gracias,
Bob Farber ATCA, TCI  :)

Online Fabius

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Re: Orange County Independan t Pay Station Sign
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 10:42:19 AM »
WOW, a full refund.
Tom Vaughn
La Porte, Indiana
ATCA Past President
ATCA #765
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Offline Sargeguy

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Re: Orange County Independan t Pay Station Sign
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 12:30:10 PM »
That's great! People like to complain about PayPal fees and whatnot but in situations like this they are usually pretty helpful.
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
TCI /ATCA #4409