Author Topic: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver  (Read 416 times)

Offline Vacuumlad1650

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Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« on: February 21, 2018, 08:05:00 PM »
I picked up this space saver some time ago. I turned a model 500 into a subset, but I can't seem to dial out (I do have pulse service here).
If I rotate the dial, it breaks tone. As soon as it returns to rest, dial tone comes back.
Wiring is as follows...

Subset:
L2- Red line in, Red Ringer, Yellow Phone lead
L1- green line in, black ringer, Jumper (to RR)
RR- jumper to L1
K- white ringer
A- red-white ringer
R- red phone lead
B- black phone lead
Gn- green phone lead

Telephone:
Terminal block-
Gn- green subset lead
W- yellow dial lead (to bb)
Y- yellow subset lead
Bk right- black subset lead
Bk left- black dial (to y)
B- yellow handset (handset has 2 white leads. Lets call thisnone yellow)
(Lets call this terminal R. The stamp wore off) R- red subset lead and red handset.
Dial-
W- white handset

Any thoughts? Much obliged!
Andy R...

Vacuumlad1650@gmail.com

My grandfather spent 40+ years at Illinois Bell. Thanks to him, I'm a nut for real telephones! Another breed of Phone Phreak...

Offline poplar1

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2018, 10:37:25 PM »
Do you have a wire from the space saver connected to C on the network (in the 500)?

L2----Y hookswitch------X------ BK hookswitch-----Y dial---/---BK dial-------C network


X = normally open contact
/  = normally closed contact

Is this a G1, G3, or F1 handset? If G-type, then the red wire and one of the two white wires from the handset connect together on R terminal in the space saver, and a wire connects R in phone to R in the 500.

Black handset wire goes to B on network in the 500.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 11:57:20 PM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Vacuumlad1650

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2018, 07:43:56 AM »
I'll give that a try. It is an F1 handset.
Andy R...

Vacuumlad1650@gmail.com

My grandfather spent 40+ years at Illinois Bell. Thanks to him, I'm a nut for real telephones! Another breed of Phone Phreak...

Offline Vacuumlad1650

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2018, 06:49:00 PM »
Perhaps I'm doing something wrong here, but I can't seem to get it to dial out. I've tried a jumper from BK to C, but I can't seem to make complete sense of the other wiring instructions...
Andy R...

Vacuumlad1650@gmail.com

My grandfather spent 40+ years at Illinois Bell. Thanks to him, I'm a nut for real telephones! Another breed of Phone Phreak...

Offline HarrySmith

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2018, 07:01:10 PM »
Pictures would probably be helpful.
Harry Smith
ATCA 4434
TCI

"There is no try,
there is only
do or do not"

Offline Vacuumlad1650

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2018, 07:14:05 PM »
Pictures...
Andy R...

Vacuumlad1650@gmail.com

My grandfather spent 40+ years at Illinois Bell. Thanks to him, I'm a nut for real telephones! Another breed of Phone Phreak...

Offline poplar1

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2018, 07:58:16 PM »
There should be only one wire on the BK brass hookswitch terminal, that is, a spade-tipped jumper wire from there to Y on the dial. (There are 2 other black wires shown on this BK brass terminal in your photo.)
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Ktownphoneco

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2018, 08:04:36 PM »
Andy    ...   Attached is a schematic to connect a Western or Northern 211 to a 685-A subscriber set.     Your "dethroned" 500 set is basically now a 685-A subset without the terminal board that a proper 685 subset has.     Both a "jpeg and pdf" version are attached.   Click on jpeg to enlarge.
The schematic shows and / or explains the set equipped with an F-1 and a "G" series handset.     The schematic doesn't actually show a ringer connected to it, but if your 500 set's ringer is a standard C4, then the ringer connections are  as follows :                 Red connects to "L2" on the network
                                                                                                    Black connects to "L1" on the network
                                                                                                    Slate connects to "K" on the network
                                                                                                    Slate - Red connects to "A" on the network.

Good luck.

Jeff Lamb
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 08:55:01 PM by Ktownphoneco »

Offline jsowers

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2018, 08:10:50 PM »
Just a heads up. Your red ringer wire is on the wrong terminal. It's on G and should be on L2, as Jeff indicated. Also you say that L1 is jumpered to RR and it's not. It's jumpered to F, which agrees with Jeff's diagram, so I'd leave that one there. But then Y on the phone needs to hook there as well.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 08:19:21 PM by jsowers »
Jonathan

Offline Vacuumlad1650

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2018, 10:53:42 PM »
Well, I'll attach pictures of the present wiring. Any extra jumpers from the phone will be replaced once my order of 6 conductor line cord arrives (ran out).
Still can not dial out...i believe I have this matching the wiring diagram...
I do know the red ringer wire belongs on L2. I moved it to G to disable the ringer for now. While setting it up to test, the phone rang. I don't absolutely need the ringer on This to work...i only.put on the subset in hopes of.making the telephone functional, and to muffle the volume of the handset.
Andy R...

Vacuumlad1650@gmail.com

My grandfather spent 40+ years at Illinois Bell. Thanks to him, I'm a nut for real telephones! Another breed of Phone Phreak...

Offline Ktownphoneco

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2018, 10:44:21 AM »
Andy   ....   On the older anti side tone subscriber sets, such as the 584 and 684 types, there was in fact a conductor which connected the "R" terminal on the dial, to the "R" terminal on the terminal board inside the 211 telephone.    The mounting cord which ran from the 211 to the subset, connected the "R" terminal on the terminal board inside the 211, to the "R" terminal on the "101-A" induction coil inside the previously mentioned subscriber sets.      However, when the 211 telephone is connected to a 685-A subset that uses a 425 network, which is basically what you now have by using the network in a 500 set, there is no connection between the "R" terminal on the dial and the "R" terminal on the terminal board inside the base of the 211, which in turn would eliminate the connection between the terminal board inside the 211 telephone and the "R" terminal on the network inside the 685-A subset.
It's hard to trace your circuits from several different pictures, but it does appear that there is a wired connection between the "R" terminal on the dial and the "R" terminal on the 211 terminal board.
Bottom line here, is try disconnecting the conductor which connects the "R" terminal on the back of the dial, and the "R" terminal on the terminal board inside the 211 telephone.

Jeff

Offline Vacuumlad1650

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2018, 06:54:12 PM »
Well, the R dial wire was removed. No change...here is the current wiring list...

Subset
L2- red line in, Jumper to Subset C
G- Red Ringer (temporarily disabled ringer)
L1- black ringer, green line in, Jumper to F
K- slate ringer
A- slate-red ringer
F- l1 jumper, yellow phone lead (to Y)
RR- blue phone lead (connected to B)
C- jumper to Subset l2
G- green phone lead (to GN)
B- black phone lead (to BK)
R- Red Phone lead (to R)

Phone Dial
M/w- white handset lead
Y- black lead (to bk)
Bk- brown lead to B
Bb- white lead to W

Phone terminals
B- blue to Subset RR, brown to Dial Bk
R- red handset lead, Red subset lead to R
Gn- green subset to Gn
Y- yellow subset lead to F
BK- black lead to Subset B, black handset, black lead to dial Y)

Thoughts?
Andy R...

Vacuumlad1650@gmail.com

My grandfather spent 40+ years at Illinois Bell. Thanks to him, I'm a nut for real telephones! Another breed of Phone Phreak...

Offline poplar1

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2018, 08:16:12 PM »


Phone terminals
B- blue to Subset RR, brown to Dial Bk
R- red handset lead, Red subset lead to R
Gn- green subset to Gn
Y- yellow subset lead to F
BK- black lead to Subset B, black handset, black lead to dial Y)

Thoughts?


BK on hookswitch should have only one wire: a spade tipped jumper wire going to Y on the dial.
Black handset wire does NOT go here! Nor does the black wire to the subset.

B on the network in the subset goes directly to the black handset wire ONLY (see below).

R on network goes directly to red handset wire only (using R on terminal block).

BK on dial goes to RR in the subset.

Since you don't have enough blind terminals (R and B on the black phenol terminal block on left), you might want to connect RR in subset directly to BK on dial. This will free up the B terminal (now empty if you go directly from RR subset to BK dial). (There is a BL (blue) blind terminal shown on Jeff's diagram. That BL terminal was added on later G6 and G7 mountings, but the BL terminal isn't on your G1 MTG.)

Now that the B terminal is empty, use it to connect the black handset wire to the wire going to B in the subset.


« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 08:39:25 PM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2018, 08:26:49 PM »
.....  However, when the 211 telephone is connected to a 685-A subset that uses a 425 network, which is basically what you now have by using the network in a 500 set, there is no connection between the "R" terminal on the dial and the "R" terminal on the terminal board inside the base of the 211, which in turn would eliminate the connection between the terminal board inside the 211 telephone and the "R" terminal on the network inside the 685-A subset.


Yes, remove the jumper from R on dial to R on the terminal block. However, the red handset wire still goes to R on terminal block in the 211, and so does the (red) conductor going to R on the network in the 500/subset. (This conforms to your diagram.)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 08:40:56 PM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Vacuumlad1650

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Re: Troublesome Western Electric Space saver
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2018, 11:09:57 PM »
Now it works perfectly! Thank you all for the help!
Andy R...

Vacuumlad1650@gmail.com

My grandfather spent 40+ years at Illinois Bell. Thanks to him, I'm a nut for real telephones! Another breed of Phone Phreak...