Author Topic: Dial tone connection  (Read 458 times)

Offline Zombie Dave

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Dial tone connection
« on: March 09, 2018, 01:56:14 PM »
I've got zero experience with these phones and their workings.  I've got my WE 500 plugged into the back of my cable modem so that I could use it. 
Here's the results.  Intermittent dial tone/ voice.  It's actually there all along,  but very,  very faint.  To the point I actually thought it wasn't working at all.
Took the phone apart and both jacks ( 616D and 623D )  need replaced as they've both got broken bits and don't stay in place.
Aside from that I originally thought it was the 616D that had some play in the connection, but what I'm finding is that actually when a apply a little pressure pushing down on the dial wheel left side, it makes the connection ( the dial tone ) work.
Any ideas what's going on?

Online jsowers

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2018, 03:00:04 PM »
Any time you have a loose connection, it can make or break with just a little flexing and the plastic housing flexes a little bit. The gray modular jacks sometimes are very brittle and break and crack, so yes if they're broken and not sitting firmly they should be replaced. It's hard to tell which is the problem if you have an intermittent modular cable or an intermittent jack, so use your best judgment and replace the one you think is the cause first.

I posted a crimper to fix your handset cord in a different thread on this same phone, if you think the cord is the culprit and you could just replace the cord if you have a hardware store nearby that carries them. Below is a set of jacks for your phone from eBay. You may be able to find them cheaper, but just be sure they're for a 500 or 2500 set and not a Princess or 554 or other model phone.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273100342539
Jonathan

Offline Zombie Dave

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2018, 04:57:33 PM »
Thank you for replying.   I'm replacing the modular jacks for sure and I do want to start collecting the necessary tools to work on these. 
From the phone sitting stationary and zero movement this part marked in the picture is where the pressure is applied which then amplifies the dial tone loud enough for me to hear it,  otherwise it's very faint. I'm truly puzzled.  Maybe after the modular jack replacements it will sort itself out.

I bought those modular jacks.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 05:10:46 PM by Zombie Dave »

Offline twocvbloke

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2018, 09:19:29 PM »
If pressing on the dial improves the audio, it could be that the contacts on the dial need a cleaning... :)

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2018, 09:24:32 PM »
Or more tension on them. Twocvbloke is right, start looking at the back of the dial.

Terry
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 11:24:07 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline Zombie Dave

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2018, 12:52:28 PM »
I apologize I didn't see these replies sooner. I'm still fumbling my way around this forum and how to use it and where questions maybe fit best.

. I'm doing this with my cell phone.  I really need a computer. Lol

Pulled off the dial mechanism and plastic part covering the gears and by pulled the contacts apart gently and allowed them to go back to their original position. Maybe they were stuck? Or like points on older cars,  need cleaned? I'm also reading up on what to oil the gears with to see what would be best.
 
I'm waiting on replacement jacks  616D & 623D to get here today and will replace those as well. 
One thing I've noticed and maybe it's perfectly normal is the clear plastic finger wheel doesn't sit flush. It is raised higher at 2,3 than say,  8,9. I'd include a picture but, today I'm not having luck with that.  Another thing I need to read up on. 
Thanks again everyone. 

Offline poplar1

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2018, 02:40:52 PM »

Here's the results.  Intermittent dial tone/ voice.  It's actually there all along,  but very,  very faint.  To the point I actually thought it wasn't working at all.
Took the phone apart and both jacks ( 616D and 623D )  need replaced as they've both got broken bits and don't stay in place.
Aside from that I originally thought it was the 616D that had some play in the connection, but what I'm finding is that actually when a apply a little pressure pushing down on the dial wheel left side, it makes the connection ( the dial tone ) work.
Any ideas what's going on?

Temporarily disconnect either of the white dial wires, which are on R and GN terminals.
Now, if the dial tone is "loud and clear", that means that it is the dial contacts connected to those white wires that are causing the problem. Probably the contacts are touching all the time. They should touch only when the dial is being wound up or returning to home position.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline HarrySmith

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2018, 03:12:00 PM »
I just posted on the other thread about the contacts. You can clean them by passing a piece of stiff paper like a business card between them. Do not use an abrasive at any time, it will destroy the contacts. A picture of the back of the dial may help.

Here is a topic with tons of info about posting pictures: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?board=84.0
Harry Smith
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there is only
do or do not"

Offline Zombie Dave

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2018, 03:14:15 PM »
I just posted on the other thread about the contacts. You can clean them by passing a piece of stiff paper like a business card between them. Do not use an abrasive at any time, it will destroy the contacts. A picture of the back of the dial may help.

Here is a topic with tons of info about posting pictures: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?board=84.0

Thank you! I'll try the business card now.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2018, 07:41:32 PM »
My point was that before bending the dial shunt contacts or even cleaning them, it is a good idea to disconnect one of the white dial wires first.

That step, if followed, would determine whether the trouble (low volume) was indeed caused by permanently shorted (maladjusted) contacts, or something else. If the dial tone is still low with one white dial wire disconnected from the R or GN terminal, then cleaning the contacts or bending them would be a waste of time (since they would no longer even be part of the circuit).

If the volume had been low even with one white wire removed, the next step would be to remove either the red hookswitch wire from the GN terminal (or the black hookswitch wire from the R terminal). The red and black hookswitch wires also mute (short out) the receiver.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Zombie Dave

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2018, 08:41:36 PM »
Update:
I'm able to hear fine now. I can dial out,  call the phone and sound is good both ways.

The new problem is while dialing , on the finger wheel return I can hear it through the handset. 

I'm so close! Thank you to everyone for your help and suggestions.

Offline kb3pxr

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2018, 10:41:30 PM »
You may have adjusted the dial shunt contacts too much. While you should hear some popping, it should be muted quite a bit. If it isn't muted the phone is either miswired or the off-normal contacts are not closing when you dial. When you rotate the dial, the dial tone should be hard to hear.

Offline Zombie Dave

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2018, 10:08:25 AM »
You may have adjusted the dial shunt contacts too much. While you should hear some popping, it should be muted quite a bit. If it isn't muted the phone is either miswired or the off-normal contacts are not closing when you dial. When you rotate the dial, the dial tone should be hard to hear.

I think I need to start with a schematic ( not schematic, but the mechanical version on what's inside) on the phone internals and on what's what. 

Today,  I'll do some searching to figure out how to adjust the shunt and the method best used for doing so.  It might be better to send it off for repairs. 

Thanks to the people on this forum I'm able to use this phone now. I can dial out,  receive calls and hear people on the other end  as well as learning some lingo getting a little familiar with the inside of these phones.

Thank you!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 10:35:31 AM by Zombie Dave »

Offline kb3pxr

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2018, 12:18:54 PM »
The mechanical information isn't easy to find (Official practice was to replace the dial, the mechanical work was usually done at the factory). However, information about the electrical connections can be found easily since that was in the official practices.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Dial tone connection
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2018, 07:36:03 PM »
Can someone please explain how cleaning normally open contacts would help?

The 2-, 4- 5-, and 6-type dials had W and BB contacts that were normally closed -- they were in series with the receiver, so dirty W/BB contacts could cause the receiver to have low volume. WE tried at least 2 "patches" : a cellophane sleeve that covered the W and BB contacts, and bifurcated ("twin") contacts.

With the introduction of the 7A dial for the 500 telephone set, they decided to short the receiver rather than disconnect it during dial operation. Now, if the receiver shunting contacts on the dial were dirty, there might be pops in the receiver as the dial pulse contacts opened and closed during dial return. But dirty shunt contacts would not cause permanent low volume, as the older 2-, 4-, 5- and 6-type dials had.

WE finally started shorting the receiver in 1949, as Automatic Electric had been doing for many years.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.