Author Topic: #4 dial on a 302  (Read 335 times)

Offline FABphones

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#4 dial on a 302
« on: January 14, 2019, 08:02:22 AM »
I did a CRPF search (I will wear that search engine out, sooo useful), and read that a #4 dial on a 302 is unusual as they mostly have a #5 dial. So I checked one of mine (yes, even on this side of the water I have four 302s in my collection!) a 1939 metal 302, and it has a #4 ('Z, 0') dial.

Sooo... I have found another phone (WE B1) that has a #5 dial ('operator, 0') and I would like to swap them over, but only if both phones would still be correct, as I think the B1 should correctly have a #4 dial?

Forgive me if I'm getting this all wrong, I know you guys will kindly put me straight.  :)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 08:08:49 AM by FABphones »
A collector of  'Monochrome Phones with Sepia Tones' - and a Duck!

* Vintage Phones - 10% man made, 90% Tribble *

Offline Ktownphoneco

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2019, 08:16:38 AM »
Fab  ....    The Western B1 desk set was first produced and equipped with a type 2H dial.     Type 4 dials, the 2/4 conversion dials were intended for the "D" series sets wit the recessed dial cavity in the base.   

I'm sending you a "PM".

Jeff Lamb
 

Offline Butch Harlow

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2019, 09:16:51 AM »
I have a II 37 all original 302 and it has a #5 dial with celluloid dial plate. I know the first year 302's came with either #4 or #5. Somewhere on here there is a list of all the configurations. My #5 has a non metallic pulse pawl. I forget the exact terminology for the material it's made from.
Butch Harlow

Offline FABphones

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2019, 12:36:44 PM »
Wow. I have much to learn Butch.

Jeff, thanks for taking time to p.m. I will read up and learn, thanks for sharing.

 :)
A collector of  'Monochrome Phones with Sepia Tones' - and a Duck!

* Vintage Phones - 10% man made, 90% Tribble *

Offline Ktownphoneco

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2019, 01:32:22 PM »
Your most welcome.   

Jeff

Offline Butch Harlow

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2019, 03:26:03 PM »
Wow. I have much to learn Butch.

That's the fun of it. Never too old to learn something new.
Butch Harlow

Offline Sargeguy

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2019, 11:33:17 PM »
It appears (to me at least) that some #4 dials, the ones that were #2 dial conversions, were used after WWII as replacements when there was high demand for new phones and as dial candlesticks and desk stands with #2 dials were retired from service.  Real "pure" 4H dials were used on early 302s, and 5Hs soon followed. D-1s were also issued 5H dials when they were reconditioned.  What are the dates on your dials? 
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
TCI /ATCA #4409

Offline poplar1

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2019, 10:21:44 PM »
FABphones, does your 4H dial have any dates on the back? Sometimes there will be a date showing when it was remanufactured or converted from a 2A to 4H.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline FABphones

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2019, 07:41:41 PM »
Opps, apol, it's taken me a while to reply, I had to clear a space on my desk/floor/room...  I didn't dare open up another phone until I had done a sort out  :-[.    Phones are like Tribbles....

Not sure where to look, or how to tell if it is a conversion, but here is a photo.  :)
A collector of  'Monochrome Phones with Sepia Tones' - and a Duck!

* Vintage Phones - 10% man made, 90% Tribble *

Offline Ktownphoneco

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2019, 10:00:48 PM »
It has all of the characteristics of an early type 5 dial, and it has a set of "H" spring switches mounted to it.     The type number and spring suffix letter are hidden by the rubber dial gasket.   I wouldn't attempt to remove the dial to check any of the above information, as the gasket will self destruct the minute you try to remove the dial.    The bare metal back of the case, is typical of a type 5 dial, the laminated terminal (1/4 moon shape), brass terminal screws and the brass counter sunk mounting screw are typical of an early type 5 dial.   I'd be willing to wager that the dial is the same one that the telephone left the factory with.     Attached is a 1941 Western 5H dial made in the 3rd quarter (III), which shows the typical spot where the dial type and date are found.   
Click & double click to enlarge.

Jeff Lamb

Offline poplar1

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 10:34:33 PM »
FABphones,

Your dial was not converted from a 2-type, because it is parkerized rather than painted black. Parkerized dials didn't appear until III 34 (third quarter 1934), and the "newest" 2As and 2Hs reported are 1930.

However, 4H dials were made between 230 (2nd quarter 1930) and II 38. All had the W terminal next to the governor. Early 5H dials
(1936- II 38) also had the W terminal next to the governor.


So your dial, if it is a 4H, must have been updated (contacts changed) sometime after 1938. Could have been done the same year as the date on the other 302 parts....However, it does look like it could be a 1939 5H...does it have loud clicks on return (like the 2-type and 4-type dials)?
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline oldguy

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2019, 01:37:11 AM »
FABphones, I like you Trimble analogy. So true :) :)
Gary

Offline FABphones

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2019, 03:05:57 PM »
...However, it does look like it could be a 1939 5H...does it have loud clicks on return (like the 2-type and 4-type dials)?

I'm not sure what these dials should sound like as I only have two 302s with dials (the other two 302s I have are manual).

Speed feels about right. The dial sounds and feels 'metally' (I like it), clicks, not sure, but it does have a nice tick tick tick tick on return, not particularly loud. Is that is the 'click'? Does that make any sense? By comparison, the other 302 I have makes a constant whirrrrr noise. That one has 0/Operator on the dial face.

From the info you guys have kindly given, it does seem like it has been untouched since new. Inside it is all dated 1939.

Have I got this right - a 5H dial is usually 0/Operator, but a 5H dial can also have the Z/Operator dial face (like the one I have)?

Thanks again everyone for taking to time to help me learn.
A collector of  'Monochrome Phones with Sepia Tones' - and a Duck!

* Vintage Phones - 10% man made, 90% Tribble *

Offline poplar1

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2019, 03:30:29 PM »
Western Electric number plates had a Z from about I 32 - II 53.

However, the plates were often replaced, either by a tech in the field, or in the Western Electric repair shops.

The "square D" indicates that the number plate was made before III 40 -- another clue that it may be a '39  5H dial.
http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=11422.msg125729#msg125729


Perhaps someone can add a sound file to compare the sound of  a 4H dial and 5H dial. Otherwise, if you remove the finger wheel and number plate, you can see how they are made differently. (You don't have to remove the whole dial.)
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline FABphones

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Re: #4 dial on a 302
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2019, 03:51:28 PM »
Thanks for the reply. Lots of good info.

I think it has all sunk in now.  :)

Thanks guys.  :D
A collector of  'Monochrome Phones with Sepia Tones' - and a Duck!

* Vintage Phones - 10% man made, 90% Tribble *