Author Topic: Help identifying these number plates!  (Read 10412 times)

Offline Dennis Markham

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2010, 10:33:31 AM »
Charles, thank you for that link.

Doug, I don't know about Brian.  I'll have to check with him.  He's been busy lately with other things (raising kids and working).  I know he is in the process of refurbishing an old radio for a friend of mine too.  But I'll try and drag him along to the Mason show.

Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2010, 01:47:58 PM »
How are we going to ID each other at the show.
I personally will be wearing a New York Yankess Baseball Cap. My daughter will be with me.
D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

Offline JorgeAmely

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2010, 01:54:30 PM »
D/P:

I'll scream at the top of my lungs: "Where is D/P?"  ;D ;D ;D
Jorge

Offline bingster

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2010, 05:49:26 PM »
I'll bet these are repro parts from some asian company, from the time when there was an inundation of repro phones in the 1970s and '80s.  At first glance, they look like normal AE plates, but as cihensley mentioned, the numbers/letters are pushed so far toward the edges, they'd never center up under the holes of a finger wheel.
= DARRIN =



Offline GG

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2011, 09:48:39 AM »


Y'all are all mistaken.  Those are not a fraud, they're real:

Those are either NORTH ELECTRIC number plates for the North Electric "Galeon" phone (I used to call them North Electric 302), or they are CONNECTICUT TEL & ELECTRIC.    (And they are most definitely not British or other foreign origin.)   Both North and Connecticut made dials with exactly that spacing of the digits and orientation of the lettering. 

The way you can tell is that the hole spacing is roughly similar to Western Electric (space for the equivalent of two more holes in the solid part of the fingerwheel) rather than AE (space for the equivalent of three more holes in the solid part of the fingerwheel), and yet they appear to be "off center" with the numeral 0 at approx. the 5:30 position rather than the 4:00 position (WE) or 6:00 position (AE).

See also:

http://www.phonevault.com/catalog/AntiqueDeskPhones/30s40s/noelgast.asp
(click the picture to enlarge to see alphanumeric version)

(the two below will show you the hole spacing and orientation though on rural (numeric only) dials)

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2568.0

http://www.xmission.com/~dh/website/collections/co2711_no_galion.html

(and below is a vinyl overlay that matches the original)

http://www.oldphoneworks.com/north-electric-alphanumeric-dial-plate-overlay.html

Anyone who called the seller a fraud, or called the goods fraudulent, or filed a complaint, ought to apologize. 


Offline Doug Rose

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2011, 09:58:44 AM »


Y'all are all mistaken.  Those are not a fraud, they're real:

Those are either NORTH ELECTRIC number plates for the North Electric "Galeon" phone (I used to call them North Electric 302), or they are CONNECTICUT TEL & ELECTRIC.    (And they are most definitely not British or other foreign origin.)   Both North and Connecticut made dials with exactly that spacing of the digits and orientation of the lettering.  

The way you can tell is that the hole spacing is roughly similar to Western Electric (space for the equivalent of two more holes in the solid part of the fingerwheel) rather than AE (space for the equivalent of three more holes in the solid part of the fingerwheel), and yet they appear to be "off center" with the numeral 0 at approx. the 5:30 position rather than the 4:00 position (WE) or 6:00 position (AE).

See also:

http://www.phonevault.com/catalog/AntiqueDeskPhones/30s40s/noelgast.asp
(click the picture to enlarge to see alphanumeric version)

(the two below will show you the hole spacing and orientation though on rural (numeric only) dials)

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2568.0

http://www.xmission.com/~dh/website/collections/co2711_no_galion.html

(and below is a vinyl overlay that matches the original)

http://www.oldphoneworks.com/north-electric-alphanumeric-dial-plate-overlay.html

Anyone who called the seller a fraud, or called the goods fraudulent, or filed a complaint, ought to apologize.  


I disagree..these will not fit a WE, AE or North dial. Can show show me a dial that they fit? These above dials were the huge majority of dials used in a Galion and I have seen many. Conn phones used the same either or WE or AE dial. Its is the shape of a WE universal plate with an AE design and cutout, but even then, the numbers are off. I asked the seller who did not answer. I really have nothing to apologize for!....Doug
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 10:53:41 AM by Kidphone »
Kidphone

Offline GG

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2011, 11:09:38 AM »


You're right and I was mistaken too!

FEDERAL.  Federal Telephone & Electric, the ITT subsidiary whose phones were found throughout Central and South America. 

I just checked a Federal dial and, without disassembling it beyond removing the fingerwheel (the return springs on those can let go easily), it appears to have the same spacing and the correct little notches similar to a number plate for a WE #6 dial.  I was just sitting down to post the correction but you caught it first, so the credit goes to you for pouncing on it. 

Oh, and I also did "ye olde foote in mouthe maneuver" by asserting that it was no way a foreign dial.  BTW, the mechanism on those is very similar to the Elektrisk Bureau dials on the Oslophones.   

This one's been giving all of us the wild goose chase!:-)

If the person who has those wants to sell 'em, I might want to buy one, though my examples of Federal phones are damaged to one degree or another so it's going to be interesting to piece a whole one together. 

Offline LarryInMichigan

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2011, 11:17:35 AM »
I have an FTR dial in a phone sitting right beside me, and the face plate does not look like these in the slightest.

Larry

Offline Doug Rose

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2011, 12:13:07 PM »
I have an FTR dial in a phone sitting right beside me, and the face plate does not look like these in the slightest.

Larry

Hey Larry ...could you post a picture. I appreciate it.....Doug
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Offline Doug Rose

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2011, 12:20:43 PM »


You're right and I was mistaken too!

FEDERAL.  Federal Telephone & Electric, the ITT subsidiary whose phones were found throughout Central and South America. 

I just checked a Federal dial and, without disassembling it beyond removing the fingerwheel (the return springs on those can let go easily), it appears to have the same spacing and the correct little notches similar to a number plate for a WE #6 dial.  I was just sitting down to post the correction but you caught it first, so the credit goes to you for pouncing on it. 

Oh, and I also did "ye olde foote in mouthe maneuver" by asserting that it was no way a foreign dial.  BTW, the mechanism on those is very similar to the Elektrisk Bureau dials on the Oslophones.   

This one's been giving all of us the wild goose chase!:-)

If the person who has those wants to sell 'em, I might want to buy one, though my examples of Federal phones are damaged to one degree or another so it's going to be interesting to piece a whole one together. 
Without removing the finger wheel, how could you determine its the correct dial plate. A WE #6 dial plate looks like it would fit a WE#5 until you try to put it on it.

I just have a real problem with your statement that you have not been able to back up:

 "Anyone who called the seller a fraud, or called the goods fraudulent, or filed a complaint, ought to apologize."

Just post a picture of a dial that you own that these plates will fit on....thanks....Doug

Kidphone

Offline GG

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2011, 05:06:40 AM »


Hi Doug-

I did remove the fingerwheel, but I haven't torn down the dial beyond removing the fingerwheel.  Behind the fingerwheel there is a circular metal retainer that is screwed into the base of the dial and holds the number plate in place.  The number plate has notches that appear like those in the photos in this topic. 

Understood that sometimes these things look compatible but aren't.  I already made that mistake twice in one posting, re. North Electric and Connecticut Tel & Electric. 

Right now it would be a logistical hassle to post a photo but here are a couple of links to the type of desk set with the dial in question:

http://www.bobsoldphones.net/Pages/AustPostOffice/FTR803_804.htm
(desk set is manual, wall set has FTR dial)

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/federal-telephone-radio-802-art-deco-dial-desk
(small picture, i can't get it to zoom, maybe someone else can?)

Offline GG

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2011, 06:00:18 AM »


I'm looking at that FT&R phone and at this point I'm 100% certain that it's a match (4th paragraph below):

The phone is of the type pictured in the Bob's Old Phones link.  The underside of the base is stamped "Federal Telephone and Radio Corporation" and "Made in USA" all in block caps in a rectangle with two borders around it, stamped into the metal.  There's an orange ink stamp with indistinct three initial and the number 168, below which is another orange stamp with the date Nov  5 19x0 where the x could be a 5 (1950 original date) or a 7 (1970 recondition date?).  There are holes below the ringer that appear to have been drilled in the field, they are not evenly spaced and have burrs at the edges.  In the interior of the housing there is a schematic in which the text referring to party line connections is in both English and Spanish, but the text pointing out various components in the schematic, and the strap for manual/dial conversion, is in English only. 

The back of the dial has a stamp in light black ink that appears to be L 802 A but could be L 602 A.  Mechanically the dial is similar to that found on Elektrisk Bureau "Oslophones" (Norway) but with heavier castings and with the governor mounted below the main gear.  The pulse cam and actuator are similar to the EB Norway dials. 

The dial has an interesting set of mounting holes: the standard American arrangement for 3" dials with three mounting holes, at 9:00, 6:00, and 3:00.  But there are two additional mounting holes, when seen from the rear, at about 6:30 and 12:30, and these are the ones used to mount the dial to the housing of this phone.  It's connected to the base by a 4-wire cloth covered cord: red, yel or white, dark green, black, respectively, with normal sized spade lugs on the screws on the dial, and small spade lugs on small screws on the terminal block in the phone (the terminal block is similar to a Kellogg 1000 but connections are made with screws rather then plug-in for the major components).

On the front of the dial, the number plate (rural, numerals only, not alphanumeric) has the same cut-outs as the ones pictured in the beginning of this topic.  One cut-out is directly pointing at the numeral 8.  There is another directly opposite that, almost halfway between digits 2 and 3, and a slightly shallower cut continuing between digits 3 and 4 to accommodate a projection in the dial base casting that is apparently the dial return stop (which interfaces with a projection cast into the back of the dial fingerwheel).  There is another cutout in the area of the number plate that is not numbered, but is symmetrical with the cutout that points to the digit 8.  The size and spacing of the cutouts is a complete match for what's in the picture.  I'm 100% certain this one is correct. 

There are probably other folks here with FTR phones who could verify these points. 

If Finlover is still around and wants to get rid of those dial plates, I'd be interested, since one of them could be used on this phone (the original is pretty worn but could be reconstituted if need be) and another held as a spare. 


Offline Doug Rose

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2011, 08:41:19 AM »
GG...I said previously, a WE #6 dial plate looks exactly like a WE #5 dial plate, but they are not match.

Federal, Connecticut and North used AE dials or AE style dials, zero at approx 6 o'clock. This will not fit an AE dial. I have two Federals, both have an AE dials.

Until "proved" otherwise, I still contend these are fakes. Only way to prove it, is to mount them on a dial. Not look at the spacing. Just because the holes "might" line up, it does not equate to it fitting. The cuts in these are made to look like the cuts in an WE universal dial plate (fits both a #5 and a #6), which is secured by a flange that snaps in place and not a screw.

Greg....do you still have these dial plates?....Doug
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Offline GG

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2011, 03:27:43 AM »


Hi Doug -

The best thing would be to test this empirically.  For instance I could ship you the phone in question, Doug could ship you the number plates, and then you could check them on the actual dial.  You've got a rep for being meticulous, so I'd have no problem shipping the phone to you, with a check made out for return shipping. 

Fallback plan would be for each of us to take pictures of the items shown with rulers next to them, and my pictures would have to include the dial with number plate on and off, and then each of us could drop the photos into photoshop to resize so the rulers match, and then photographically merge them to see what happens.  If our results are convergent, we've got a solution.  If not, we've got packages to ship:-)

I'm vaguely familiar with the WE mismatch issue: they're compatible in one direction (I think a #6 numberplate will go on a #5 dial) but not the other direction: many years ago I recall being puzzled by the fact that the circular retaining clip wouldn't click into place on a swapped numberplate, don't recall much more than that, but didn't try swapping across types after that. 

I'm also willing to bet that your Federals with AE dials have some kind of adaptors that are screwed onto the mounting tabs on the Federal housing and provide three holes at 3:00, 6:00, and 9:00, for mounting the AE dial. 

The first Federal I got was sans dial, and an AE 51A dial would *not* go into that housing by itself; the only thing that would fit was a Japanese dial of the same type Jack Bohnsack used to put in his heavy rubber test sets, but that was so far off from original that I decided to not bother.  BTW, that's a teeny bit larger than 3" but not quite as large in diameter as a GPO UK slipping-cam dial.   Federal #2 has the dial in question on it but the housing is damaged (sigh; "take two, make one"). 

If you have Federals that AE dials fit into, stock, without any adaptor rings or other mods, and with the proper screw holes for AE dials in the tel set housings, then that's a different sub-species of Federal than I have.  In which case our debating fest here has just led to the very interesting discovery that Federal made two different styles of housing for the same type of phone, to enable use of different dials.  One way that could have happened would be a split between the Latin American market (the examples I have) and the USA / Canadian market (possibly the examples you have).

Anyway, this is turning into an interesting mystery that will be interesting to solve.

-GG

Offline Doug Rose

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Re: Help identifying these number plates!
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2011, 07:31:34 AM »
GG....you lost me on empirically. This has turned into a debate. All I am saying is you have to put a dial plate on a dial to see if it fits. Simple? Below is a picture of three beat up WE plates on top of each other, showing why a #5 and a # 6 cannot be interchangeable. 1 fits a #2, #4 and #5 dial, 2 is a #6 plate fits only a #6 dial 3 is a universal plate that fits both. They look the same, but are not. Pic 3 are the plates in question.

I have the phones you have mentioned. I do not own the plates, Greg (Finlover does).

I emailed the seller of the auction when this was on eBay telling him my concerns. He did not answer me. I answer every question I get when selling on eBay. Just good business.

You said " Anyone who called the seller a fraud, or called the goods fraudulent, or filed a complaint, ought to apologize." This I have a problem with. Since I was the one who contacted the seller, I am assuming this might be directed at me.

In my many years of collecting, I still contend these will not fit any dial I have ever seen. I feel they are fakes. Good fakes?, but still fakes. There are no adapters that I know of that can make these useful. Why not just use the real dial plates?

Doug

  


« Last Edit: February 26, 2011, 07:55:37 AM by Kidphone »
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