Author Topic: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set  (Read 238436 times)

Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #645 on: April 09, 2010, 09:32:30 PM »


First of the verbage on the bottom.

Early  "test" sets were used in several types of locations. The most obviouse being "Bell Labs". Next off was high ranking executives (on occasion) Bell Lab Employees, Friends of engineer's who get on the "official Tryer" list. (I met one of these ladies). ect.


Now if any of these sets failed, Their was a need to get it back to the labs for examination. If you think about it, Within the offices of Bell labs there were probably lots of telephones in use. Thes ran the gamut from early testing, Various stages of field trials, pre-production, early production and regular production phones.

I think any phone that needed to get returned for evaluation after failure, would have some sort of verbage to indicate to return it.
The Bell system was quite "anal" when it came to how they did most things. In a building of engineers, I expect the need to mark phones that needed to get return to the "lab" would get marked. This is just my opinion, but it makes sense to me.

Second

Most of what I post is my opinion, Some speculation, and some strongly held opinion. DO NOT think I am a GURU.
I am not. Please question me if you disagree or are curious about what I base my opinions on.

Either your points will make me reconsider my opinion, or by explaining my opinions, I will get better insight on how likely they seem.
The best way to learn is to teach, It makes you organize your thoughts.

Jim
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 09:34:29 PM by Jim S. »
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Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #646 on: April 09, 2010, 09:33:49 PM »
B.O.P.;
I did my best to make it look good. Many others out there could have done the same, and many could most likely have done even better.
I will say, I don't think many could have done it with more enthusiasm, or excitement.


I did some cleanup and scratch removal on the shell, then polished it, and the handset with Novus. Whatdayathink ????

D/P

It sure shined up pretty.
Jim
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Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #647 on: April 09, 2010, 09:41:59 PM »
That looks gorgeous.

I was gonna object to dremmeling the body but its a scrapper anyway, with the big chunk out of the side.

I would take up the dentist drill suggestion if you want to have a half and half case.
I gave the half and half case some thought.
My best solution is to get a modern generic clear 2500 and see if it can be Merged with the broken black case.

That way you have a nicely formed clear housing (with ribs) and the black top.

Not all generic clear 2500 sets are created equal. Some are foggier than others. I have seen some really clear sets, and some that are more translucent. The various clear 2500 plastic can vary, which might make different techniques needed depending on the plastic type.

The clear generic 2500 sets are notched. I would leave the notch and use a Genuine We mousehole filler.


Just a thought,
Jim
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Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #648 on: April 09, 2010, 10:25:29 PM »
Jim;
As far as the markings on the bottom, I will concede that yes, that factor alone could make it outside of the 1 in 50, however how do you reconcile the other factors that point to a 1 in 50 Field test set. The Ringer, aluminum dial mount, green wrapped coils parts that match drawing, and even the photo that was dated 1949, that speaks of trial sets, and the photo shows the Z dial. Do we disallow those factors or consider them. Like I said, if you consider ALL factors, one points to it could be outside of the 50, but 5 factors point to it being within the 1 of 50. My view like I mentioned before is the simplest explanation is MOST LIKELY the correct one. It would be easy to accept that the phone was outside of the 1 of 50, but  it's very hard to ignore the other factors that point to it being within the 1 of 50..

Secondly, If in fact this set was issued to say a Bell employee, how would they keep track of the set ? What would they use to identify this particular set to a particular person ?
My thought, Joe Blow, signed for, and Received set D#177001-125.
Signifying that Joe Blow received 1-D#177001- model 500 telephone set, number 125.

D/P
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 10:28:50 PM by Dan/Panther »

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Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #649 on: April 09, 2010, 11:40:44 PM »
Tom;
Do you know Doc Brown, by any chance ???

Ralph;
I'm in no way questioning Paul, or Jim. In my line of work, all my life I was trained to troubleshoot technical problems, on complicated expensive factory equipment. Why it broke, and the best way to fix it, and ac possible way to prevent further breakage of the same component.

In 35 years, I learned two very important things,

1) No matter how well you know a subject, if someone else offers a comment or opinion, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, LISTEN TO THEM. It is just possible a new set of eyes and a different brain may see something you didn't.

2) The simplest solution, or explanation of a problem, is USUALLY the correct one.

I would be disappointed in Paul and Jim if they refused to at least, entertain  alternate opinions, or points of view, and to discuss them, and offer reasons for their opinion. "That's just the way it is", won't cut it.
After all "None is blinder than the one that refuses to see....."

It never was and never will be my intention just to make someone angry because i don't agree with them, If I'm wrong show me, convince me, I'm not above saying to anyone any time, "I was wrong."

D/P

"Because I said So"
was never a valid reason for me either.
Jim S.
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Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #650 on: April 09, 2010, 11:43:03 PM »
Jim;
I'm waiting here holding my breath.
Two pieces of compelling evidence points me towards 48 Pre-Production Field Trial Set.
1) The write up in BST, 4/51
The drawings are exactly like my phone components.
Mine has the aluminum dial mount.
The bell coil is wrapped in green.
Mine has the aiming dots.
Plus the photo with the article.

2)In my mind the most compelling piece of evidence is the bottom markings (photo below)
Why would that instruction be placed on the bottom of a prototype that wasn't going anyplace ?

B.O.P.;
We don't take that responsibility lightly either.

Dan;
I think Tom is like that guy in Twilight Zone, everyone else gets older and he stays young, Tom is really 250 years old.

Tom;
It amazes me also the way everyone rallied around this find. I'm very thankful they did. The project would have taken much, much longer without Dennis' help, Jim' help, and everyone that gave great advice.
I can't ever forget, Michael Bachefski, from Toms River, New Jersey, for selling me the phone in the first place.

D/P




A lot of retired Bell engineers live in Toms River NJ. I have this on good authority.
Jim
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Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #651 on: April 10, 2010, 12:07:07 AM »
Jim;
As far as the markings on the bottom, I will concede that yes, that factor alone could make it outside of the 1 in 50, however how do you reconcile the other factors that point to a 1 in 50 Field test set. The Ringer, aluminum dial mount, green wrapped coils parts that match drawing, and even the photo that was dated 1949, that speaks of trial sets, and the photo shows the Z dial. Do we disallow those factors or consider them. Like I said, if you consider ALL factors, one points to it could be outside of the 50, but 5 factors point to it being within the 1 of 50. My view like I mentioned before is the simplest explanation is MOST LIKELY the correct one. It would be easy to accept that the phone was outside of the 1 of 50, but  it's very hard to ignore the other factors that point to it being within the 1 of 50..

Secondly, If in fact this set was issued to say a Bell employee, how would they keep track of the set ? What would they use to identify this particular set to a particular person ?
My thought, Joe Blow, signed for, and Received set D#177001-125.
Signifying that Joe Blow received 1-D#177001- model 500 telephone set, number 125.

D/P
Read my upcoming post. I am reviewing the postings that occured while I have been typing.  They only exterior feature  that your "as-found" set has with the photo is the dial.
The dial design could of been decided on quite early. Have we found a design # for the dial yet?

All your points seem to be that it is earlier than early-production sets.  I agree that your set is a pre-production set, I wonder if it is earlier.

My question is : Is it earlier than the Pre-production field trial sets? My  upcoming post explores that question.
I also address question 2.

I think the aiming dots were added on dial tests, not necessarily on the field trial tests (I haven't read Paul's reference on the dots tho, It might have some more details).

Regarding Joe Blow: He tried out set D177001-125. But he dropped it. I guess we should go with a metal fingerwheel :D

Jim
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Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #652 on: April 10, 2010, 01:16:50 AM »
That Joe guy always was clumsy.
D/p

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Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #653 on: April 10, 2010, 01:18:09 AM »
That Joe guy always was clumsy.
D/p
That is why they let him take one home. If he couldn't break it , no one could.
Jim
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Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #654 on: April 10, 2010, 02:14:50 AM »
My long, opinion of D/p's phoner, seems to of gotten lost, before posting. I will try to recreate the key points for a posting tommorrow. I spent several hours tweaking the original post. I really liked it. i am bummed it is lost. Such is life,
Jim

BTW it was the upcomining post that I mentioned several times earlier.
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Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #655 on: April 10, 2010, 02:17:15 AM »
My long, opinion of D/p's phoner, seems to of gotten lost, before posting. I will try to recreate the key points for a posting tommorrow. I spent several hours tweaking the original post. I really liked it. i am bummed it is lost. Such is life,
Jim

BTW it was the upcomining post that I mentioned several times earlier.

I hate it when that happens.  It has happened to me several times
-Bill G

Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #656 on: April 10, 2010, 02:42:01 AM »
My long, opinion of D/p's phoner, seems to of gotten lost, before posting. I will try to recreate the key points for a posting tommorrow. I spent several hours tweaking the original post. I really liked it. i am bummed it is lost. Such is life,
Jim

BTW it was the upcomining post that I mentioned several times earlier.

I hate it when that happens.  It has happened to me several times
This is my second time. This posting was well thought out and worth keeping for reference. ( did I mention i took hours to create it)

So was the other posting. It was regarding trimlines. There wasn't near as much interest in the trimline post. But both postings were well done and worth saving in my notes. Both posst were the result of several hours of tweaking and referance
I can get over not getting them posted, I just hate losing my copy of "quality" notes. I spent a lot of time making my justifications. I felt I made  very good points I was going to incorporate them in my Reply to "Paul's points to Ponder"It is multiple pages of my ponderings and musings, It is a great place to debate early 500 design.
Now they are gone, any reconstruction loses "the passion" that was there.
O'well, S**T happens.
Jim
I will still argue Dan's set appears pre-48 field trial to me{ It is the grandaddy of 500's, Dan felt that pre feild trial didn't count, sometimes it doesn't, But his set is definently a very early 500, we need to figurew out the timeline tho, I would sasy 48' field or probably before) This is only my opinionj. I will build my case later.
In the meantime. Post your thoughts , questions and arguments for my current statements. That will help me build ny passion again.
Jim
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Offline AtomicEraTom

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #657 on: April 10, 2010, 06:23:28 AM »
Funny, even in my uniform at work, I still give of a 'from the past' sort of vibe.  I was talking to a guy and in mid conversation he just blurts "You strike me as someone who would have lived in the 1950s" just from nowhere, made me laugh.

Tom;
Do you know Doc Brown, by any chance ???

D/P
I am a lineman for the county and I drive the main roads. Searchin' in the sun for another overload.  I hear you singin' in the wires, I can hear you through the whine, and the Witchita Lineman is still on the line.

Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #658 on: April 10, 2010, 01:15:56 PM »
Tom;
The jig is up.

Jim;
That used to happen to me a lot on the radio forum. Until I finally figured that I could go backpage 2 times, the first gave me a blank posting form, but the second backpage my notes would appear.
This happened for a year before I caught it.
I hope you get the passion back, so I can see how you document what you think.

Now that I think about it though, My set is so different from the production models, I'm beginning to think it must go back a ways farther, because their wasn't enough time between 48 Field Trails, and production, to implement all of the changes, from my set, to the production set.
 
So now my thought is this. two possible scenarios.......

1)  My set predates the 50, 1948 field Trial sets by a time, maybe 6 months to a year. That way they had time to correct, or change any items in my set, which would have culminated in the 50, 1948 field trial sets. From the 50, 1948 field Trials, to production, my thinking is not a whole lot was changed. Minor tweeking.

So to sum up my thoughts.
 
My set, if compared side by side to a 1948 field trail set, in my opinion, would look quite a bit different, for the reasons mentioned.

OR

2)  There may have been two, or more groups of field trial sets, distributed at the same time, all in contention for production, and my design lost the trials. That would explain the swapping of sets midway into the trials. If all of the sets were the same, why swap them ?

Example;
O.K. you tried that set, now tell us what you think of this one.

D/P
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 11:43:03 PM by Dan/Panther »

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Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #659 on: April 10, 2010, 01:55:14 PM »


Now that I think about it though, My set is so different from the production models, I'm beginning to think it must go back a ways farther, because their wasn't enough time between 48 Field Trails, and production, to implement all of the changes, from my set, to the production set.
 
So now my thought is this. two possible scenarios.......

1)  My set predates the 50, 1948 field Trial sets by a time, maybe 6 months to a year. That way they had time to correct, or change any items in my set, which would have culminated in the 50, 1948 field trial sets. From the 50, 1948 field Trials, to production, my thinking is not a whole lot was changed. Minor tweeking.

So to sum up my thoughts.
 
My set, if compared side by side to a 1948 field trail set, in my opinion, would look quite a bit different, for the reasons mentioned.

OR

2)  There may have been two, or more groups of field trial sets, distributed at the same time, all in contention for production, and my design lost the trials. That would explain the swapping of sets midway into the trials. If all of the sets were the same, why swap them ?

Example;
O.K. you tired that set, now tell us what you think of this one.

D/P

I tried this again. I typed it as a draft e-mail and pasted it to this message.
It isn't as long or eloquent as my original. I left out some of my other musings, including the handset/housing musing.

 Dan has started thinking along the same lines as I am regarding his set. It was Paul's ponderings that got me thinking.
________________________________________ ___
I will try this again.
Let's compare Dan's 500 to the 1949 sets and early 500's
 
Baseplate- Pretty much the same except for the mounting of some components and the verbage
 
Footpads- flat bottomed at the baseplate and screwed on
 
Switchook- I am not sure about the contacts, The plunger levers are different
 
Equalizer- Pretty much the same- main difference is the nut that helps create a heat sink
 
Network- splicing screws overhang the can
 
Dial- spotting ( ?) hole, different fingerwheel, different FW mounting  Z/ operator plate
 
Ringer- totally different
 
Markings_ verbiage on baseplate- One of the '49 sets has a label w/ different verbage (maybe it is over Painted verbiage?)
 
Dan's set has D# components as all major components, no dates. The 49 sets have standard components and production dates.
 
Now if I created a new telephone design, and tried it out a bit and decided it was worth while.
Would I:
 
A. Make a small batch with (D#'s) of about 50 sets, Field trial them , if successful, make some changes, then  build a production line and take the first 4,000 sets and do a widespread field trial.
 
                          OR
 
B. make 50 sets like Dan's set. Then change all of my designs, build a production line and then test the first 4,000 dated production phones
 
 
I would make do A . I think Dan's set was basically an patent/ engineering model.
I think the 1948 field trials would be a compromise of Dan's set and the early production models. All of Dan's components  are "different". I don't think they would jump directly from the design components to the production components. This would add to many variables.
 
Addressing the wording on the baseplate. Early Trial sets were tested In house at employees desks, at Bell executive homes, at Employees homes, and at some select trial customer homes (I met a lady who tried out a lot of the trial sets, She usually got to keep them when the tests were over.( I don't think there were very many customers who got to do this)
 Bell labs was full of engineers and telephones. Many of the telephones and components were being tested, some were being trialed, Some phones were just part of the phone system.
Any of the trial sets were probably marked, so the repairman would know if he should attempt repair or send it back to the lab for evaluation.
 
Just my opinions,
Jim
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You die, you forget it all.