Author Topic: Now the Story Can be Told - 1949 WECo 500 Set  (Read 237799 times)

Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #885 on: May 07, 2010, 07:45:25 PM »
Matt;
Like I posted in another thread, From my phone to the production phone, NOT ONE SINGLE COMPONENT REMAINED THE SAME. So you are correct they tweaked it a lot.
D/P

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Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #886 on: May 09, 2010, 01:25:06 AM »
Could someone help me get my head around a statement Henry Dreyfuss made in his book "Designing for People".
When he is obviously attempting to show how much the production of the 500 increased over the years, WHY did he choose to use the 1950 production figure, in lieu of the 1949 figure, which would have made his statement even more profound.
Note the wording he uses, "Initial Shipment". No matter how you slice it, "initial" means "first"....He doesn't say; the "Initial mass shipment", he says; "initial shipment"... which I would interpret as being the "first". Are we absolutely sure that the 1949-500's were production phones, for consumers, or were they tests, that were later removed from service, to be followed by the INITIAL SHIPMENT in 1950 ???
D/P

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Offline Brinybay

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #887 on: May 09, 2010, 01:35:52 AM »
Could someone help me get my head around a statement Henry Dreyfuss made in his book "Designing for People".
When he is obviously attempting to show how much the production of the 500 increased over the years, WHY did he choose to use the 1950 production figure, in lieu of the 1949 figure, which would have made his statement even more profound.
Note the wording he uses, "Initial Shipment". No matter how you slice it, "initial" means "first"....He doesn't say; the "Initial mass shipment", he says; "initial shipment"... which I would interpret as being the "first". Are we absolutely sure that the 1949-500's were production phones, for consumers, or were they tests, that were later removed from service, to be followed by the INITIAL SHIPMENT in 1950 ???
D/P

Could it be that they were first manufactured in 49, with 49 dates, but not shipped until 50?  I wouldn't be surprised at all if execs held up the initial shipment of 49s until 1950 for a reason.  I've worked in warehouses where new products were held up and sat around for months because some exec was holding up the show for whatever reasons.  Just a guess.
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Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #888 on: May 09, 2010, 02:03:29 AM »
I think Intial shipment refers to the intial system-wide shipment of subscriber sets,

 This shipment would also tie in with articles and advertisements in consumer publications.

If you think about it, each truckload is a "shipment", I think he was refering to the intial stocking order system-wide, as the intial shipment.


1950 was the first FULL production year of the set. this # shows how many the were able to produce in the 1st calendar year.

the 50 1948 pre-production sets were rounded up and sent back out for more field trials.
The 1949 early production sets were installed as field trial sets, however I think they stayed where they were installed, and the subscriber just answered questions regarding their opinions of the 500 set. Some of these phones may actually still be installed and working at their original location.


Regarding the changes from Dan's phone to the production models.

Most of the changes are minor and were probably the result of gearing up for large scale production runs. These changes probably saved  time and/or material.

I did read that the change in the dial bezel was because of injection molded dial bezels. The origanal dial face was to costly to produce using the injection process.

JMO,
Jim
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Offline bwanna

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #889 on: May 09, 2010, 10:33:22 AM »
dan, i have been trying to "get my head around" this information also.

paul f refers to the 1948 as field trial of pre-production sets (50 of them)

 1949's as field trial of early production sets/ 4000 distributed in 10 locations.

in 1949 the new 500 was announced. june of 1950 the first supply was announced.

the way i read this is that in 1949 bell said the 500 set would be out soon. then in 1950 production of the first batch was complete & ready for distribution.

are we assuming (possibly erroneously) that all of the 4000 '49 field trial early production sets were the same? they were distributed in 10 markets. could the sets in each market been different? 

it's the dots & the "0" position on the dial ring that bring this question to my mind. the changes to the dial ring were made during the development process.

d/p's phone has all the early internal components, the early "0" configuration. but it has the aiming dots which were added later. the '49's were also field trials, so could have been marked "return to bell labs"

i seriously think there may have been 10 different configurations of the 500 in 1949. and dan has one of them.
donna

Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #890 on: May 09, 2010, 01:19:34 PM »
I just wish we could run across some significant document to lay this to rest.
Like Bwanna points out 4000 sets distributed to 10 locations reeks of a test.
My personal feeling is that we are confusing a November 49 announcement of soon to be released 500's, was actually announcing the 86,000, 1950 models. I don't base this on documented facts, only a gut feeling.

Jim;
The only flaw I see in your explanation, is the original discrepancy I pointed out in Henry's statement, He was trying to show how much the production had increased over the years, and he omitted the one fact that would have profoundly made his point.

I would be MUCH MORE IMPRESSED, by a figure growing from an initial shipment of 4000 to 7,000,000, rather than 86,000 to 7,000,000. The latter seems to pale in comparison to the former statement.

I have a problem with the fact that we have an almost intact example of a 1948 Pre-Production 500, of which maybe 50 were produced, YET we only have one single Dial (Paul's) remaining of what is pro-ported to be a production run of 4000... That does not compute as being logical.

I'm sure by now that whomever it is that claims to have a 49-500, has read or at least heard of this find by now.
I challenge that person to at least produce an anonymous photo of the alleged 49-500, or I must assume that one doesn't exist.

I've contacted the Smithsonian, inquiring about their 49-500, and have not received a response.

In light of the fact that a pre 49-500 has been uncovered I think it's time we have some proof of a 49-500, other than one single dial.
The set I have was uncovered purely by accident, yet collectors have been aggressively seeking the illusive 49-500 for quite some time and nothing, just doesn't make good sense.

The reason I keep kicking this point around is this.

If in fact their are 4000, 49-500 out there someplace, makes my find significant in the fact that it's predates the 49's, and is a great link from design to production, BUT if the 4000 do not exist, that makes my find almost astronomical in significance.

I think we really need to up the heat on the documentation of 49-500 sets in private hands.

D/P
 

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Offline bwanna

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #891 on: May 09, 2010, 01:53:10 PM »
dan i so agree......would somebody, somewhere, please come out of the woodwork with an example of/ information on 1948 & 1949 model 500 sets.

i am still convinced that your phone is a 1949 for two prime reasons. the presence of the dots on the dial face. & there were only 50 '48 models ....4000 '49's. higher odds of finding a '49.

JMHO  (& fervent wish that dan has his BIRTHDAY PHONE)

BTW....we really need some exact documentation for our book! i don't want to have to end it....."not sure what we have here, but it's really cool" :o
donna

Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #892 on: May 09, 2010, 02:05:07 PM »
Donna;
You know this kind of thinking is going to be very harshly accepted, and many will vehemently disagree with our position., maybe rightfully so, however it's time to .....or get of the pot.
I have no proof of my gut feelings, but my gut feeling is as valid as any other gut feeling.
I have produced what I claimed to have found, now it's others turn to produce proof of their claims, or we must discount their claims, as alleged, or hearsay.
Boy that should fire someone up.
Our research efforts are at a standstill, and yet we have claims of links that would go a long ways to finalization of our goals. It just doesn't seem right for a small portion to have exclusive knowledge if a significant link.
Come on people produce......
D/P

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Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #893 on: May 09, 2010, 03:03:15 PM »
The following are OPINIONS that I have regarding these subjects. My opinions are based on information and observations of the Bell System.


Regarding aiming dots.  I think the dial testing was done inhouse on dials for the most part. I don't think the dialing tests were part of the field trial.

If they were  part of the field trial tests, then they were probably done with the 50 1948 pre-production sets. These same sets were used repeatedly for field trials. The bezel change was probably done after the first few rounds of testing.

There is a document on TT configuration testing. It explains how users dialing speed was tested. They used pen registers (Which "officially don't exsist) as part of the test equitment.

There are a lot of rules pertaining to the exsistance, maintanence use and transport of Pen registers. I doubt if they would use them for testing instruments outside of Bell Labs.

I think the phone in the Dreyfuss book is a plaster model.

Regarding "Intial shipment" The 1950 # represents the first "production" sets.

The pre-production sets were used for field trial.
The Early-Production sets were made to test the manufacturing process. They were also field trialed to gain insight on customer acceptance and opinion.

1950 sets were the actual Finished product, avaliable throughout the Bell System.

Regarding Dreyfuss's statements. He was a design guy (engineer?). He worked for a design and marketing firm.

The figures qouted cast the best picture of the set, from the client standpoint.

If you use the 4,000 figure, it appears that production was low or there was a subscriber reluctance to the new set.

If you (rightly*) use the 1950 figure. It shows how much production increased based on a calendar year.


* Rightly, it wasn't until 1950 that the 500 set was avaliable throughout the Bell system. I feel it is "right and Proper" to use the full production and availability year for the intial shipment  figures.

I would trust in-house Bell Lab Engineer statements as "fact-as-written".
Marketing info I try to read between the lines. This pertains to any of the info written for the subscriber.

Written statements are always written for a "target" audience. If your audience are enginneers you try to be precise, If your audience is a layman, you write in a manner that gets the point across and makes a "good showing" of your client.

The dreyfuss book was written with the layman and students as the target audience.  Using the 1950 figures you get the concept across without bringing up the questions of low production in 1949.

The aiming dots came up in some  period articles, so it gets mentioned in the book. I beleive the photo is a plaster model and the "shot" is staged. They probably brought out a sans-dot model for the shot because, the aiming dot tidbit was out there.

JMO,
Jim
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Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #894 on: May 09, 2010, 03:26:55 PM »
dan i so agree......would somebody, somewhere, please come out of the woodwork with an example of/ information on 1948 & 1949 model 500 sets.....
! i don't want to have to end it....."not sure what we have here, but it's really cool" :o

Given the fact that there are no dates on the phone or its pieces, until there is a document that somehow surfaces from Bell Labs that shows the D-XXXXX numbers and when they were used and for what purpose, we (the collective we) will probably never know.  Otherwise all we are left with is opinion and speculation.  Then it will become a matter of who makes the biggest points in supporting their opinion or who makes the most noise about it.  :)
-Bill G

Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #895 on: May 09, 2010, 03:50:08 PM »
It is my opinion that Job shop parts aren't dated, but production line parts are.

The early production sets are from production lines.

The d# parts are from the job shop.
JMO,
JIm
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Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #896 on: May 09, 2010, 04:01:43 PM »
I feel my set is a pre-production Field Trial set from 1948. But I sure would like to compare the internal works against a known 49-500. That is why I would like to put pressure on the collector that claims to have one. How can submitting photos anonymously to a third party like Paul for posting possibly create a situation where the phone may be in jeopardy.
Come on folks if you have one, which I doubt, let us see it.
D/P

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Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #897 on: May 09, 2010, 04:20:36 PM »
I feel my set is a pre-production Field Trial set from 1948. But I sure would like to compare the internal works against a known 49-500. That is why I would like to put pressure on the collector that claims to have one. How can submitting photos anonymously to a third party like Paul for posting possibly create a situation where the phone may be in jeopardy.
Come on folks if you have one, which I doubt, let us see it.
D/P

I beleive the set is out there.
I beleive the owner isn't on this forum.
I beleive that Paul F. is probably the only person they would send the photos to.

I suggest that you post your request on both of the listservers.
The TCI list is open and the ATCA list is closed, but you can join the ATCA since you are a member. I assume you have already joined the ATCA listserver.
Jim
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Offline Russ Kirk

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #898 on: May 09, 2010, 04:58:51 PM »
Quote : The TCI list is open and the ATCA list is closed

Maybe it is me but I don't understand,  but both clubs forums are still active on Yahoo groups.  

ATCA
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atcaclub/  

TCI
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/singingwires/

Granted 90%+ of the postings are at the TCI Yahoo group.

Yes,  we all should be members of all the groups.
Frankly, I like this one the best - no offense to the other groups.

As for your wonderful and unique find, IMHO you have a 1948 prototype,
That is until anyone can come up documented proof to the contrary this it is not a 1949 item.  
Either way it is a truly historic item.  
I believe if there is anyone that would have documents proving one way or the other would, they belong to one of these 3 fine groups.

That is, sadly, unless they have passed on.
After 60+ years that is a possibility.

At one time in this thread someone mentioned about contacting the Smithsonian about this instrument.
I think that would be an excellent thing to do, they might have some data or contacts to add.....

I have yet to see any postings about this instrument on the TCI or ATCA  Yahoo groups.    
Maybe when that occurs someone will come out of the woodwork with information about their 1948 or 1949 instrument.  

Who knows, maybe someone has one sitting dusty on the shelf,  not looked at for years.  
Only to find there is someone else out there with a historical item like yours.
I know,  I immediately checked mine!

Let everyone know of your find,  have an article of the find and EXCELLENT restoration posted in the newsletters of both clubs.  

Russ.......

« Last Edit: May 09, 2010, 05:01:20 PM by Russkirk »
- Russ Kirk
ATCA & TCI

Offline Jim S.

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Re: Now the Story Can be Told.
« Reply #899 on: May 09, 2010, 05:07:26 PM »
Quote : The TCI list is open and the ATCA list is closed

Maybe it is me but I don't understand,  but both clubs forums are still active on Yahoo groups.  

ATCA
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atcaclub/  

TCI
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/singingwires/

Granted 90%+ of the postings are at the TCI Yahoo group.

Yes,  we all should be members of all the groups.
Frankly, I like this one the best - no offense to the other groups.

As for your wonderful and unique find, IMHO you have a 1948 prototype,
That is until anyone can come up documented proof to the contrary this it is not a 1949 item.  
Either way it is a truly historic item.  
I believe if there is anyone that would have documents proving one way or the other would, they belong to one of these 3 fine groups.

That is, sadly, unless they have passed on.
After 60+ years that is a possibility.

At one time in this thread someone mentioned about contacting the Smithsonian about this instrument.
I think that would be an excellent thing to do, they might have some data or contacts to add.....

I have yet to see any postings about this instrument on the TCI or ATCA  Yahoo groups.    
Maybe when that occurs someone will come out of the woodwork with information about their 1948 or 1949 instrument.  

Who knows, maybe someone has one sitting dusty on the shelf,  not looked at for years.  
Only to find there is someone else out there with a historical item like yours.
I know,  I immediately checked mine!

Let everyone know of your find,  have an article of the find and EXCELLENT restoration posted in the newsletters of both clubs.  

Russ.......


Russ,
The Yahoo ATCA group is an open ATCA@ list. It was started september 11 or 12 2001, The main list went down so Chuck created the ATCA#2 list. Is has been kept as an open list but not much info passes thru it.

I did request info from the main atca list and TCI list.
We will see what happens.
Jim

BTW Welcome to the forum, I don't think I have welcomed you yet.  We have had (good) dealings in the past.
Good collecting,
Jim Stettler
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You die, you forget it all.