Author Topic: Echo on other line  (Read 5362 times)

Offline McHeath

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Re: Echo on other line
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2010, 12:04:36 AM »
Yeah but I had to do after the installer left.  :-\ 

Back in the 90's I was an installer for a security/alarm company in Tejas, favorite jobs were hardwired installs in ancient attics in high summer, nothing like crawling around in dusty insulation all day. 

Anyway the guy who put my system in actually ran the wire to the phone box on the OUTSIDE of the house, drilled right through the wall and then snaked it along and into the box.  He made a couple of other minor errors in his programming of the unit, but hey. 

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Echo on other line
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2010, 12:07:51 AM »

McHeath,
Is your RJ31X (alarm) wired proerly? It seems me that about 30% aren't. It is a better percentage now than it used to be.
Just an observartion,
Jim

Jim, that's right...you are involved in security systems somehow aren't you? Me too.

I agree with the screwed up alarm jack statement. Used to be the Telco HAD to do them and that led to the vast majority here being done properly. Then deregulation of inside wiring arrived (only 10 or 12 years ago in Canada) and I began to see more of them done (by alarmco's and wanna be's) poorly or just plain wrong.

That began to clean itself up as as security systems became more and more controlled and regulated here. Now that all the alternative Dial Tone providers, cableco's, contractors, voip providers etc etc are in charge of the dial tone, things have really gone for %$#@!.

I have (only) several hundred monitored customers and am constantly following the various dial tone providers fixing all the alarm connection messes that they create as customers flip flop from provider A to B to C then back to A etc. Most of them have absolutely NO IDEA what an 8 position alarm jack is let alone how it is supposed to work.

Terry.

Offline Jim Stettler

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Re: Echo on other line
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2010, 01:00:41 AM »
McHeath, Terry,
Proper wiring of the  RJ31X separates's the professionals from the armatures.The incompetent installers always get it wrong and the compent alarm guys still screw it up 35% of the time.

I am an alarm guy by trade (20 years). I am a fire alarm technician for the last 15 years. NICET is finally is catching up with me and I am back in the loop with a pending NICET 1 . Work is paying for certification, so I want to knock off NICET 4 over the next year or so. I played the NICET game 20 years ago.
Now it pays. and it pays well.

 With fire at least 1 line needs to be copper by code. I work in schools and we are bound by the IFC. There is no teeth, but the local FD will intervene when we ask.
 Wish me well,
Jim
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

Offline mmd

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Re: Echo on other line
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2010, 12:28:16 PM »
I'm wondering, whats the symptoms of a failing condenser?

(I want to know them even if it's unrelated to this problem, just for future knowledge)..

When I pick up the handset there is sometimes a pop in the receiver..
Brandon
Western Electric 302, 500

Offline Dan/Panther

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Re: Echo on other line
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2010, 12:55:40 PM »
The echo your are hearing is very common on my cell phone service. It's caused I've been told it is caused by the distance from the Cell tower and the satellite and the distance back down from the satellite it's a few milli seconds delay, transmission time, and can periodically cause an echo effect, land lines do not suffer this fate as long as there is not a satellite involved. Just what I was told by a service tech from Verizon. probably just trying to discourage cell phone use.
D/P

The More People I meet, The More I Love, and MISS My Dog.  Dan Robinson

Offline Russ Kirk

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Re: Echo on other line
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2010, 03:03:25 PM »
Often times there are three causes for echoes in the wireless to wire-line telephone call.

Hybrid echo Ė the most common cause for echoes.
The echo in wireless communications is caused in the conversion between the 2 wire landline connections to the 4 wire connections in the circuit path between the cell site and the various switching offices,  this will result in an impedance mismatch.   This conversion causes a delay (latency) in the signal,  when the delay is larger than about 36ms.  When the conversion delay is too long it leaks energy back to the cell caller and an echo is heard.  All wireless carriers install echo cancellation equipment to resolve this issue.  But sometimes it is also caused during the speech compression and decompression process.  All cell calls (as well as all land line LD calls) are compressed for transmission through the wireless and PSTN networks.  Echoes can occur in both the wireless and land line calls. 

Again, echo cancellation circuitry is designed in the wireless and land line equipment to resolve this issue.   Most cheaper cell phones do NOT have the circuitry installed for echo cancellation,  but it is being introduced in more expensive handsets. 

The cell sites do not communicate to satellites.  Cell sites have either a T1 line, fiber optic (OC3) or microwave connection back to the PSTN.  The distances involved and so short they do not introduce echoes l much like older satellite communications. More and more cell sites are being converted to fiber optic connections due to the high levels of video and data media being sent and received.

Acoustic Echo.
This is when the sound bounces from the speaker to the microphone in the cell phone handset.

Background echo
Often occurs in hands-free mode and much like acoustic echo.

So,  determining the cause of the echoes can be tricky.  But that is not the area I work, I donít work in that department. I just engineer the wireless equipment for installations.

Sorry to disgaree
Russ...
- Russ Kirk
ATCA & TCI

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Echo on other line
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2010, 03:31:49 PM »
I'm wondering, whats the symptoms of a failing condenser?

(I want to know them even if it's unrelated to this problem, just for future knowledge)..

When I pick up the handset there is sometimes a pop in the receiver..

First of all, which model of phone are you asking about?  I will assume you are talking about a 302.  Those condensers rarely go out, but hey, sometimes they do.  If it was always happening and it was almost an ear splitting loud pop, then I would say that the capacitor is bad.  If it only occurs sometimes and is not all that loud, see below:

For a 302, it might just be the hook switch timing.  If it sometimes does it and sometimes not, it might be best to not mess with it.  I have several 302's that are that way, and it is generally the nature of the beast, since the hook switch is designed to break first and make last to give the capacitor (condenser) and the inductor a fraction of a second of time to settle so as to not induce a click in the receiver.  It is not perfect, since that time seems to vary.

Better circuitry in the 500 did eventually eliminate the problem, but in the 302, it can still be present.

Bending the hook switch contacts to adjust timing is something that the amateur does not want to attempt.

There is one thing you can check.  The hook switch has two sections.  Sometimes, if someone that does not know about the timing has taken the phone apart, they may put it back together with the hook switch sections reversed.

The easiest way to check this is to go to the TCI technical section and download the pdf file of the wiring diagram of the 302 and check to see that the hook switch wires, which are color coded, are connected to the right places.

If they are connected to the correct place, I would say that it is better to live with the problem.

For yet more on receiver clicks, there has been another thread going on at:

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2714.msg37240#msg37240
-Bill G

Offline mmd

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Re: Echo on other line
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2010, 03:43:36 PM »
Yes, it's the 302, and yes it's only sometimes..

I'll just live with it then.
Brandon
Western Electric 302, 500

Offline bwanna

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Re: Echo on other line
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2010, 06:45:13 PM »
there is one person in particular that i talk to (cell to cell) where i always hear an echo. a couple of times i have heard an echo on cell to landline calls. so i am thinking it has something to do with digital transmissions.

any echo i have dealt with on copper line has been inductive trouble.

while ATT does offer VoIP on uverse ckts, my job is on the copper side. i can't offer any info on the voice over internet except....don't use it .....use copper ;D mcheath stated all the reasons.
donna

bellsystemproperty

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Re: Echo on other line
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2010, 07:15:47 PM »
Actually for us copper is cheaper than VoIP, Vonage at least.
Vonage, for unlimited service is $26 a month. ($15 for six months, but then it goes up)
http://tinyurl.com/vonageprices
POTS (copper line) service from at&t is $23 a month, and that is the permanent price.
http://tinyurl.com/att-pots-pricing
Granted, Vonage does give you unlimited long distance. But, with Google Voice you can make free long distance calls. You just dial the number by calling your GV number from your phone, then dial the selected number. You can also initiate the call from your PC, you click "call" and then it rings the phones and connect, all without using touch-tones. The quality has been excellent for me.

The one thing you do need for GV is caller id. You don't need a screen or anything, but when you access your account GV checks your caller id to allow you to access your account. This way it can distinguish you from anyone else. Say you're 821-9952 and that is the number you registered for GV. It knows it's you calling and takes you into you're account. If you are 215-9963 and call then it will ring your number, 821-9952. Don't worry though, because the package online for at&t includes caller ID. You don't need a caller id screen or phone, because GV is just checking the outbound caller id.

Google Voice is invite only, but I'll give you an invite if you need one and show you how to use it.

Offline mmd

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Re: Echo on other line
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2010, 07:24:08 PM »
Hmm I'll think about it..

Thing is though, here in my neighborhood, I don't think copper is existent anymore.  Even if you don't get U-verse, it's still treated as VoIP at the head end, I think.  I can be wrong though..

I can't find prices though for at&t in my area, it's probably the same as yours..

I don't want to change services though, everything is setup for my VoIP, and I like being able to use the phone from my iPod and laptop, when not even home.

Interesting note though, I called 2 people this morning, and none of them heard an echo, they said it was loud and clear.  I called back the people that heard an echo, and they still hear it..  Call back again person without echo, still no echo.

I'm begining to think the problem isn't on my end, but theirs.

Remember, I don't hear the echo, it was only them that heard themselves, I never heard anything..
Brandon
Western Electric 302, 500

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Echo on other line
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2010, 08:18:50 PM »
It is probably how your VoIP is connected through to the central offices of the specific people that you are calling that cosnistently hear the echo.  Or, if they are not on a Central office and have VoIP, maybe it is the way that their VoIP system connects to yours.

Just because there is an echo doesn't mean that it is coming from your phone or your provider.  In fact, I wopuld say that it is a very difficult thing to diagnose and pinpoint these days.
-Bill G