Author Topic: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?  (Read 10405 times)

Offline Come in Nighthawk

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Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« on: June 08, 2010, 07:38:44 PM »
Being a non-technical-type, standard technical wiring diagrams give me a migraine.  :-\  I was wondering if anyone has discovered and organized a good set of "visual" (and better yet, colorized) subset wiring diagrams appropriate to connect to WE 102/202 mounts?

I.E. similar to the excellent diagrams in this tread:

www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=784.msg9309#msg9309

...for the 534, 584, 634, and 684 subsets?   ???


Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2010, 08:32:09 PM »
you are dealing with four conductor cords on the antisidetone, and three conductors for the sidetone, and they are supposed to be color coded.

Sidetone:

Red Connects to R in the subset
Yellow connects to L2/Y in the subset
Green connects to GN in the subset

Antisidetone is the same as above, plus:

Black connects to BK in the subset

-Bill G

Offline Come in Nighthawk

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2010, 09:50:19 PM »
That helps.  Now, for one more dumb question.  Connecting the subset to the wall, once it is connected to the phone?

Do you use another four-line cord that terminates in a modular RJ-11 plug?  And do you connect the four cords to the same terminals as the cord running from the phone?  Or to a different set of terminals? 

Appreciate the help!   :)

Offline Jester

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2010, 11:11:18 PM »
You certainly can use a cord that terminates with the RJ11 plug, as that is what most homes are made to accept these days.  Connect the red lead to L1 & the green lead to L2 inside your subset, & you're in business.  You will not need the yellow or black leads, so either tape them off or find an unused terminal to fasten them to.
Stephen

Offline Come in Nighthawk

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Revisiting 'Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?'
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2010, 10:53:34 AM »
Be gentle w/ the newbie guys.  :D

First, from what I've read in a few books and on this forum, what made old phones "sidetone" (or really what we'd call "feedback" today?), was really (or mostly) caused by the quality of the "transmitter?" and not so much by the "receiver" (earpiece?).  W.E. at least actively sought to "fix" this by making some sort of internal ("guts") changes to their subset, although at about the same time, they introduced a new transmitter capsule (the F1?) which with improved materials (?) cut down on the sidetone too?

That said then, you could find a B-1 or D-1 mount (with E-1 handset) wired into either an earlier "sidetone" subset or a newer "anti-sidetone" subset? 

OK, then if I am reading the advice aright:

IF I have correctly identified my subset, and am using a Sidetone subset:

Take the Red cord from the "R" in the fone mount and connect to the "R" in the subset.
Take the Yellow cord from the "Y" in the fone mount and connect to the L2/Y in the subset.???
Take the Green cord from the "GN" in the fone mount and connect to the GN in the subset.

Antisidetone is the same as above, plus:

Take the Black cord from the "BK" in the fone mount and connect to the "BK" in the subset.

From EITHER subset to the wall, using a cord terminating with the RJ11 plug:  Connect the red lead to "L1" & the green lead to "L2" inside the subset, & either terminate "harmlessly" the other two leads, or tape them up, so in either case they make no contact inside the subset?

And if the PHONE is still operable, and the subset is too, then I should be "in business," n'est ce pa???

Jamesir Bensonmum: "I don't think we have any Nespa, sir. Just Hershey's."   ::)

 ;D
 

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2010, 12:50:55 PM »
Nighthawk:

Your wiring is correct, but the assumptions about sidetone versus antisidetone need a little "help".  Sidetone was annoying even with the early transmitters, and was not so much a quality of transmitter issue.  While a more efficient transmitter will create more sidetone, it was really the fact that in the sidetone circuits, a very large amount of the transmitter's power is induced into the receiver.

Some sidetone is good, but too much is detrimental.  Good from the standpoint that if the telephone user hears his or her own voice, they know the phone is working, and they also will not yell into the phone.  Too much sidetone, and the user will lower their voice too much and the person on the other end may not hear them.  Even more detrimental is that if the user of the phone is in a noisy environment, such as a factory or a busy bus station or a restaurant (you get the picture) the background noise that the user hears in the receiver coming from its own transmitter makes it so that the user cannot hear the person on the other end.

The antisidetone circuit is an induction coil winding for the receiver that is wired so that it cancels out a great deal (but not all) off the sound coming from the phone's own transmitter.

Antisidetone circuits were developed even before the newer transmitters were in use, and you are correct in stating that the newer transmitters did make it even more important to have antisidetone subsets.

The development of the F1 and T1 transmitters did not cut down on sidetone, since they were each much more efficient than their predecessors.  All of the sidetone reduction was achieved by the induction coils in the earlier sets and the combination of the induction coil/varistor/capacitor impedance balancing network in the 500 and later models (and equivalents for the independant and European makers.)

Hope that helps.

And, oh by the way, we tend not to get cranky here with questions, unlike other forums.  Even if asked by a "newbie".  No question is dumb.  And hey, the advice is worth what you pay for.  :)
-Bill G

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202? - "Cheater" subset
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2010, 12:01:28 PM »
Nighthawk:

You asked for the diagram for the resistor/capacitor subset that can be used on a 102/202 phone.  Well, here it is.

This is essentially the same circuit that Ma Bell used in early buttset (Lineman's test sets) back in the day when induction coils were heavy and bulky.

This is not a true subset, in that it does not use an induction coil, so there will not be the full gain in volume at the distant end as would be from a subset using an induction coil.  On todays modern phone systems, it will probably not be noticeable to anyone.

It is not antisidetone.  It is sidetone, which means that it is perfect for the 102 style phone that has three leads coming from the deskset.  If you have a 202 with a fourth black lead (antisidetone), just tape the end of the black wire and don't use it.

This circuit does match the impedance of the line to the phone and the capacitor provides D.C. isolation from the receiver so that the receiver does not get demagnatized over time.

There is, of course, no ringer in this circuit.  Since it only consists of two parts, rather than using a terminal strip, it could alternatively be wired in an RJ-11 terminal block like I show in photo number 3.  Room for wiring is a little tighter in that case, but produces a much better looking result.

It uses three commonly found parts and all can be acquired from Radio Shack.

Photo number 1 is the diagram and parts list for the circuit.
Photo number 2 is a picture of one I just made up and tested.
Photo number 3 is the same circuit built in a standard modular terminal block

Note that in photo 2, I used a terminal strip that I had available, and it is not the Radio Shack terminal strip, so one you buy from them will look different.  In photo number 3 is the terminal block which can also be acquired from Radio Shack or almost anywhere else that sells phone attachments.

Also note that whether you use the terminal strip vesion or the terminal block version the only wires used from the house jack are the Red and Green.  All other wires coming from the house jack are used for things like second lines and can be either snipped off or just not used.  In the photo of the terminal block (#3) you may see that I snipped off the yellow, black, blue and white wires to make for a neater looking job, and so I could make use of the spare terminal screws for the resistor and capacitor.

Don't confuse the wires coming from the jack with the ones coming from the B1 or D1 desk set.  The desk set also uses red, yellow, and green (and sometimes black), so don't snip the wires from the desk set!

Take a look at the attached and let me know if you have any questions.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 12:03:21 PM by Phonesrfun »
-Bill G

Offline Come in Nighthawk

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2010, 03:23:18 PM »
Bill, many thanks.  Yes, I do have a couple more questions?  ???

First; ringer (bell)?  I can "just" buy an inexpensive external ringer from Radio Shack (RS) or Amazon or similar, and place it in-line bettween the wall and this "terminal block" (faux subset), so long as I don't care if the ringer & subset are in the same place, or "box?"

Next, in pix-3, using the "terminal block," that block should come w/ a cover?  So it would be more cosmetic, i.e. cover the terminals?

Also, in pix-3, the small RS black thingy and the little brown RS thingy w/ stripes?  It appears their bare wires touch as they meet the modern green wire at the terminal screw?  Its okay, right, since they are going to "touch" anyway as they get screwed down together with the green lead's end at that screw?  Right?

Not being a "wire-head," I'm really relying on your pix more than your diagram (my brother could read your diagram easily), I want to be sure I "see" your ideas.  If I can number the six screws of the terminal block from left to right with 1-3 in the top row, and 4-6 (left to right) in the bottom row?

1) The red cloth line from the B-1 or D-1 mount runs to terminal #1, and meets the brown RS thingy w/ stripes?

2) Un-used.  I could screw the black lead from the phone to it "harmlessly?"

3) The modern green lead from the RJ-11 line meets the small RS black thingy and the little brown RS thingy w/ stripes @ terminal #3?

4) Un-used.

5) The cloth-covered green lead from the phone meets the small RS black thingy @ terminal #5?

6) The modern red lead from the RJ-11 line meets the cloth-covered red lead from the phone @ terminal #6?

 ???

Again, thanks for the help so far!  If I have understood your instructions (pls let me know), ten I'm off to RS @ lunch tomorrow!!!   :o  Cheers, Duane.   ;D

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2010, 04:20:30 PM »
Duane:

All of what you say is correct.

The brown "thingie" with the stripes is the 220 Ohm Resitsor.  The black "thingie" is actually dark blue in color, but its color is not important.  It is the 2.2 microfarad (mF) capacitor.

Yes.  One side of the resistor and capacitor are joined at the same terminal that the green RJ-11 wire is hooked to.  And yes, you can get a ringer and hook it in-line with the "subset".

Good job of interpreting my attempt at giving the instructions.  Oh, and one last thing.  Yes, the RJ-11 terminal block comes with a cover that I did not include in the photo.  They usually also come with screws and/or some double sided sticky stuff to attach it to a wall or baseboard.

-Bill G

Offline Come in Nighthawk

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2010, 04:31:10 PM »
Excellent!  Two more things now:

1) I'm off to RS at lunch t'morrow!  ;D

2) What would a similar "block" look like for an ANTI-sidetone substitute subset? ???  E.G., more parts?  How wired?  Thanks for everyone's patience!!    :)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 05:17:49 PM by Come in Nighthawk »

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2010, 05:52:58 PM »
Duane:

You actually need an induction coil that is designed for telephone applications to do antisidetone.  It cannot be done with a simple resistor and capacitor circuit.  There are coils that one can buy from electronic supply houses (but not Radio Shack) that will work, but the work needed to do that is such that it would be best to just buy a subset on e-Bay.

Try this simple sidetone circuit first, and see how you like it.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 06:27:16 PM by Phonesrfun »
-Bill G

Offline Come in Nighthawk

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2010, 05:53:53 PM »
T'anks Bill!   ;)

Offline Jim S.

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2010, 08:30:37 PM »
I like the RJ11 solution. A "network" and mod converter in 1. I might have to go to RS as well.
Jim
You live, You learn,
You die, you forget it all.

Offline Come in Nighthawk

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2010, 11:07:01 PM »
Yowie!!   ;D  My first effort works!!!!   :o

Many thanks Bill. 

Now a follow-on question.  How do I know when either the resistor or capacitor has failed /burned out?  Will the phone cease to work?  What I'm driving at is, will I know one or the other has failed (and needs replacement) BEFORE the F-1 transmitter demagnetizes, or after!?

My Frau (who's far more scientific than I) says the two little thingies will act like a fuse, so if either goes not only will I see one end (or both) sort of "melted" IF I look, but (as they are covered by the terminal block's cover) since they act like a fuse, if either "goes" the circuit won't be complete any longer, and the phone will cease to function? ??????  Thus protecting the phone and its pieces-parts?

???

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Subset wiring diagrams to WE 102/202?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2010, 03:27:43 AM »
Congratulations, Duane!

The parts shouldn't burn out.  You are looking at probably 30 miliamps which is 30/1000ths of an amp.  If you got a 1/4 watt resistor, you will be good for a long, long time.  The capacitor, likewise will go for a long, long time.  These are not parts that are like incadescent bulbs that are prone to "burning out". 

However, if either were to ever go out, your phone would, indeed, stop working.  If the transmitter or the resistor were to go out, the phone would go completely dead and you would not be able to hear or be heard.  If the receiver or the capacitor were to go out, but the transmitter and the resistor were still good, others would be able to hear you, but you would not be able to hear the person at the other end.

-Bill G