Author Topic: remanufacuring WE 300 Shells  (Read 3138 times)

RDP

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Re: remanufacuring WE 300 Shells
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2011, 09:19:35 AM »
Call me a purist, but I don't like the idea of flooding the market/world with mass produced fakes.  Perhaps there's a market for that since we see all those reproduction 302's with push buttons but as a collector I wouldn't want one.  

The exception would be something that doesn't exist any longer or are very rare (like Doug's clear 302 and the colored AE sets).   I think with Ray keeping the prices on those relatively high it keeps down the demand (for reproductions).

But opinions are like you-know-what.....everyone has one.  That's just mine.

I have to agree with Dennis, there way too many reproduction garbage out there all ready. As some of you know I collect and restore antique electric fans and the reproduction market is even creeping into it. I say POO POO on anymore reproductions. I believe it literally dropped the bottom out of collecting some antique glass because a lot of people were so afraid of repo's they stopped buying. And as I think about it, there are not too many items in the antique and collectible world that some Chinese company hasn't reproduced yet and that'll just be more garbage for our land fills. Just what we need. Please excuse me for my curtness, this is a raw spot of mine.

Offline GG

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Re: remanufacuring WE 300 Shells
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2011, 11:12:49 AM »


Looks like I'm losing the vote here. 

So I have a question.  In another topic we're discussing AE speakerphones, and there's an issue about power supplies.  If original power supplies can't be found, do y'all think it's legitimate or illegitimate to find new replacements to get the units working?  And if a speakerphone unit is burned out, how'bout replacing transistors and/or electrolytic capacitors, which will involve soldering on the circuit boards? 

RDP

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Re: remanufacuring WE 300 Shells
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2011, 02:35:35 PM »
Recapping, and replacing other electronic components is done quiet often in radio restorations and if done properly I see nothing wrong in it.
And if your talking about an External power supply that doesn't effect the integrity of the inner workings of a phone I see nothing wrong in that either. But, that's just my opinion and I'm entitled to that. What ever you do is your business, I just rather not hear or have anything to do with it.

Offline Sargeguy

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Re: remanufacuring WE 300 Shells
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2011, 11:42:07 PM »
I think a black replacement shell would be fine.  I'm not sure it would be cheaper than obtaining one of the millions of decent original shells.  If you start getting into color sets, the problem is with making a replica handset, it's a lot more complicated and not really worth it.  Also the potential for fraud increases.
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
TCI /ATCA #4409

Offline bingster

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Re: remanufacuring WE 300 Shells
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2011, 12:01:01 AM »
I think the whole idea is pretty brilliant, personally.  I could envision a small range of historically accurate reproductions (AE34, GPO 200 series, SC Fatboy, etc). 
= DARRIN =



Offline GG

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Re: remanufacuring WE 300 Shells
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2011, 03:42:57 AM »



RDP:  OK, well that's better than "don't ask / don't tell," and at least I can be open about my "orientation" around here (as in, pragmatism about getting things to work even by using non-original parts).  So I'll meet you in the middle here by posting "Warning: explicit!" above any posting where I go into detail about behaviors you might consider sinful, so you can avoid reading anything you might consider offensive.  Deal?  : - )


Warning, explicit:

Bingster, thanks; and let's maybe open up a topic on that subject, where we can discuss our heretical intentions among like-minded folks without offending anyone else.  Since you've been here longer than I have, maybe you should do so and send me a message?  To be clear about this, the place I draw the line is, there have to be clearly identifying marks and other means such that the item can't be taken for an original, and the marks etc. can't be obliterated without it becoming overt and detectable fraud. 

Actually we could plan on enough such marks and a couple of other minor variations, that it would be impossible to pass off replicas as originals.  For example a notch and groove molded into the hookswitch plunger holes and plungers, that wouldn't be visible externally but would be visible upon inspection and could not be altered without sufficient labor as to make it clear that fraud was intended.  Handsets and caps could be threaded differently, for example with coarser than original threads.  Replacement dials will be obvious for example via the shape of the hole cut in the component in which the governor is mounted.  Etc. etc.  Now all we need is to find someone with the $$ to get a project underway, and some discussions with Ray K. to be sure we're not infringing his territory with this.   What would be super cool would be for him to be involved in the project at some level, so they become synergistic in some way. 

We can also use intellectual property laws to ensure that no one claims these are originals, I can go into more detail about that later.  I know of some good I/P lawyers in the Open Source scene who might have some ideas in this regard. 

And YES it would be majorly cool to do GPO 232, with proper ringer boxes that could be mounted integrally or on the wall.   I'd like to set those up so the cord entry can be rear or side as one chooses, and with four feet rather than three on the ringer box.  General paradigm: original design, improved technical performance, "as if the original had evolved a little over time."    And ideally, include the multi-line stuff starting with a 2x10 system and possibly doing a 3 x 10 or 3 x 20.  I have plenty of specific ideas on how to proceed with those. 

RDP

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Re: remanufacuring WE 300 Shells
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2011, 07:51:28 AM »
(GG quote) Actually we could plan on enough such marks and a couple of other minor variations, that it would be impossible to pass off replicas as originals.  

GG, Now there's an idea I can even live with. Because that's one of the problems I have with reproductions that, and being returned to it's original state just by removing what ever was done to it.

Oh! and no warning needed GG, I'm a big boy and am responsible for my own actions now. If I like not what I read, I just quit reading.

Offline Babybearjs

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Re: remanufacuring WE 300 Shells
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2011, 10:55:23 PM »
BOY! I sure got you guys chattering!   John
John

Offline JorgeAmely

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Re: remanufacuring WE 300 Shells
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2011, 12:12:27 AM »
... Love the sound of the ring that only brass bells give you....


Doug: If I sneeze really hard, I can hear them ring a little too.  ;D ;D ;D
Jorge

Offline GG

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Re: remanufacuring WE 300 Shells
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2011, 09:52:55 AM »


RDP, thanks; looks like we're moving toward being on the same page.

To be really clear about this:  No way I want to see reproduction material passed off as original because that's fraud, and our entire economy has gone rotten with fraud to a degree that nearly caused it to collapse altogether.  The people who did that to the banks and such belong in prison, and the entire mentality should go down in history as an episode of pandemic evil.  So we do not want to walk in those footsteps. 

Also, I don't want to see this mess up the market for the genuine articles.  In fact I think what's likely is it would end up releasing more originals into the right hands. 

The only major potential problem I see is that they might cause a situation where original black sets were scrapped out for parts or the prices went up for them due to their potential for conversion.  Or certain parts such as 3" dials started getting expensive due to conversion potential.   To my mind that's a deal-killer and has to be dealt with in some way.  And the best way to deal with that is to build the replica of the entire set, so there is no temptation anywhere to go scrapping out originals, even damaged ones.

The goal here is to make colored ones more accessible, rather than making black ones or parts less accessible.  If that means we have to wait until there's enough investment behind the project to start producing reproduction dials, so be it.  BTW, if the dial chassis were hard plastic rather than metal, that would also serve as a clear sign that they were repro. 

And with the key system models, we would have practical office phones for use in small offices or in "secretary & chiefs" groups behind larger PBXs, so these things would start sprouting up all over the place because the practical value would justify the aesthetic choice by the users. 

On the other hand, one might go off in an entirely different direction and design something almost from scratch.  Imagine a dial similar to a WE 5H, where the pulse cam, instead of being attached to the main shaft, is free to revolve around it but provided with a one-way ratchet, and a pawl on the main shaft similar to an AE 24.  This resolves neatly the problem of uneven wear on the pulse cam: it only revolves in one direction, so all of its teeth wear equally.  I can't think of another dial mechanism that did it that way, and I've seen dials from practically every country on Earth from the mid 20th century to the present, to the point where I rarely run across one that's new to me in terms of the operative mechanism.   (Or there's a fatal flaw in the design?)

OTOH, I wonder about the comparative investment cost needed to get Cortelco to resurrect the 500 and produce them in the full range of colors, with non-mod cords using round cord stock...?  If we wanted to "go there" we could even see about color-matched or nickel-plated fingerwheels for these.  Or resurrect the old ITT K-500 housing style, with its slightly more rounded contours (I have a couple in dark gray with numeric dials, I should go find 'em and post pics)...  Hmm...




Offline GG

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Re: remanufacuring WE 300 Shells
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2011, 11:02:11 AM »


MAJOR CLARIFICATION: 

Dennis brought it to my attention that some of this, particularly my sloppy use of the word "we," might generate incorrect impressions that he or this board endorses or supports any of this activity.  He doesn't, and the board doesn't; even regardless of diverse opinions about what is and isn't proper in the telephone universe, it's also clear that any speculations about business activity cannot be endorsed or supported by this board.   In fact I know why that is: technically it can end up looking like a "business offering" of some kind once it goes past the "wild ideas" stage, and that's a no-no. 

So to be quite clear about this:  there is no plan for a specific business project of any kind at this time; this is merely brainstorm & blue-sky; and anything to do with reproduction parts or telephones is highly controversial; and this board and other organizations can't have anything to do with any of that.

If anyone wants to discuss this stuff with me, let's take it to private message. 

And last but not least, I posted this message freely, in my own words, not under any disciplinary action by anyone, but by way of respect for community norms that I haven't yet become fully accustomed to.  So, apologies if I've ticked-off anyone or caused any mistaken impressions.  And let's take the brainstorms about reproduction multi-line dial phones and rainbows of colored sets and other wild ideas, to private messages.