Author Topic: 4-button 440, no dial tone  (Read 2794 times)

Offline Brinybay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4382
4-button 440, no dial tone
« on: April 18, 2011, 03:59:10 PM »
Here it is.  Needs some minor cleanup.  Some corrosion around the keyset.  No rust on the bottom, feet in good shape.  Not sure why they had the line cord routed through the same hole as the handset cord, but I fixed that.

Tried to test it, no dial tone, but I'm not sure I hooked it up right.  I only want it to function as a single-line phone since all I have is one line.  Many wires in the line cord, I just hooked up red and green.  Or it could be something else.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 03:44:26 AM by Brinybay »
The idea that a four-year degree is the only path to worthwhile knowledge is insane.
 - Mike Row
e

Offline Brinybay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4382
Re: 4-button 440, no dial tone
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 04:00:31 PM »
Pic of the line cord.  I attached the red and green wires to a biscuit.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 03:44:45 AM by Brinybay »
The idea that a four-year degree is the only path to worthwhile knowledge is insane.
 - Mike Row
e

Offline Phonesrfun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4867
  • "Number Please"
Re: 4-button 302, no dial tone
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2011, 04:06:50 PM »
Hard to tell exactly from the pictures how the red and green wires are connected inside the phone.  Did you try pressing button #1 when you were trying for dial tone?  In the pictures, all the buttons seem to be in the up  position.
-Bill G

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 912
    • Manufacture Discontinued
Re: 4-button 302, no dial tone
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2011, 04:32:32 PM »
From looking at your third pic, I would reverse the locations of the RED and BLACK wires.

It appears that the GREEN wire is correctly connected to the terminal marked 1T, but the RED wire should be connected to 1R, and it is connected to 1H instead.

The BLACK wire appears to be connected to 1R where the RED wire needs to be.  You can move it to 1H or "tape and store" it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 04:35:05 PM by masstel »
Adam Forrest
Los Angeles Telephone - A proud part of the global C*Net System
C*Net 1-383-4820

Offline Brinybay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4382
Re: 4-button 440, no dial tone
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2011, 04:44:28 PM »
I played with the buttons a bit.  The first button appears to be a hold button, it does not stay down when pressed, and any of the other 3 that are down pop up when the first one is pressed.

It seems to be doing something, but no dial tone.  I have it on ext 2 with working phone in a splitter.  When I dial ext 2 and hear the working phone ring, I pick up this one.  The other keeps ringing when I pick up the handset on this one, and all I hear is a "click, click" of the two shorts ringing of the PBX, and the working phone is still ringing.  I then push one of the 3 buttons to the right, the working phone keeps ringing until I push the far left hold button, but it doesn't "hold" anything, it simply disconnects.

Actually, it would be kinda neat to get this to hold and transfer between extensions.  

First order of business is to get it cleaned up.  I'll take more pics.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2011, 03:45:06 AM by Brinybay »
The idea that a four-year degree is the only path to worthwhile knowledge is insane.
 - Mike Row
e

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 912
    • Manufacture Discontinued
Re: 4-button 302, no dial tone
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2011, 05:06:22 PM »
Did you fix the RED wire as I described?  I'm pretty sure if you make that change and then press the first pick-up button, which is the second button from the left including the hold button, then this phone should operate as a standard phone.

After you fix the RED wire, it appears from the photo to also be correctly wired to ring, but I can't tell for sure from the pic.

You'll be able to wire up to three extensions to the three pick-up buttons on the set, but "hold" will not work without extra, external equipment (a key system).
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 05:08:56 PM by masstel »
Adam Forrest
Los Angeles Telephone - A proud part of the global C*Net System
C*Net 1-383-4820

Offline Phonesrfun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4867
  • "Number Please"
Re: 4-button 302, no dial tone
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2011, 05:11:23 PM »
I'll have to get a diagram of the phone and see which wired to connect.  Probably not red and green, but the phone could have been wired differently inside from it's stock condition.  Yes, button #1 is a hold button.  My error.  Button #2 should be line 1.  Your phone will not be able to use the hold button to place a call on hold through the Panasonic.  The only way to hold and transfer on the Panasonic is the same way you would use any analog phone, and that is to flash the hookswitch and that places a call on hold, and you can dial the other extension number to transfer.  

This 4-button phone that looks like a 302 is not a 302.  The keysets that were designed like the 302's were 400 series phones.  Your is probably a 444 wired for 1A1 keysystems.  You will still be able to wire it so that it functions like a 302, however.

-Bill G

Offline Phonesrfun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4867
  • "Number Please"
Re: 4-button 302, no dial tone
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2011, 05:14:13 PM »
Dave:

I had not read your post about changing the red and black wires inside his phone.  Now that I go back and look at the photos, it appears you may be correct, but like you say, the pictures are hard to see where the wires are actually going.

-Bill G

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 912
    • Manufacture Discontinued
Re: 4-button 302, no dial tone
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2011, 06:33:10 PM »
it appears you may be correct, but like you say, the pictures are hard to see where the wires are actually going.

Actually, I'm pretty sure about the line cord wires in the pic.  It's the ringer wires that I said were a guess...
Adam Forrest
Los Angeles Telephone - A proud part of the global C*Net System
C*Net 1-383-4820

Offline Phonesrfun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4867
  • "Number Please"
Re: 4-button 302, no dial tone
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2011, 11:43:22 PM »
Actually, I'm pretty sure about the line cord wires in the pic.  It's the ringer wires that I said were a guess...

I hauled out my 444 and wired it up, and it works good.  Greg:  Switch the black and red wires inside the phone that come from the line cord like Dave suggested.  The line cord red should be hooked to 1R, and the line cord green should go to 1T.

I believe the way your ringer is connected, it should ring on line 1 which is that green and red pair.  The ringer should be connected as follows, which appears to be the way it is connected:

Ringer red to 1R
Ringer Black to K

Capacitor slate to K
Capacitor yellow to 1T
Capacitor slate/red to 1R



 

« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 11:45:49 PM by Phonesrfun »
-Bill G

Offline Brinybay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4382
Re: 4-button 444, no dial tone
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 04:31:25 AM »
Switching the red and black worked.  Dials out, receives, rang twice, then quit ringing.  Even though I have the gongs off, the clapper responded to the incoming signal twice, then quit moving, but the phone still receives.

The corrosion around the keys was just some stain that wiped off easily with a little Novus on a rag.  I have the gongs, keys, inserts, and the bracket that holds them in some oxiclean.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 05:56:50 PM by Brinybay »
The idea that a four-year degree is the only path to worthwhile knowledge is insane.
 - Mike Row
e

Offline Brinybay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4382
Re: 4-button 444, no dial tone
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 06:43:06 AM »
Your phone will not be able to use the hold button to place a call on hold through the Panasonic.  The only way to hold and transfer on the Panasonic is the same way you would use any analog phone, and that is to flash the hookswitch and that places a call on hold, and you can dial the other extension number to transfer.  

I didn't know I could do that, thanks.


This 4-button phone that looks like a 302 is not a 302.  The keysets that were designed like the 302's were 400 series phones.  Your is probably a 444 wired for 1A1 keysystems.  You will still be able to wire it so that it functions like a 302, however.

Well, it works, got it to ring again too by moving the spring in the ringer to the middle.  Did a superficial buffing of the case, it shined up real good.  Just need to take the dial out to clean the number plate and finger wheel.  This has a 5H dial, I noticed they also make a clicking noise, but not as prominent as the 4H.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 05:57:07 PM by Brinybay »
The idea that a four-year degree is the only path to worthwhile knowledge is insane.
 - Mike Row
e

Offline GG

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1170
Re: 4-button 302, no dial tone
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2011, 10:15:33 AM »


Aha, there's that dial center with a bright red letter in it (again).  This is an interesting puzzle we're trying to figure out: what do those letters stand for? 

If your ringer is only ringing a couple of times and then behaving oddly, it may be that the ringer capacitor has started to die.  In which case any 0.2 to 0.5 microfarad capacitor rated at 200 volts or higher, will do the trick nicely. 

For capacitor values 0.2 to 0.4 microfarad, you may have to rotate the ringer gongs inward somewhat and/or move the bias spring to an "unbiased" position where the bell clapper does not have a tendency to return to one gong but can easily rest adjacent to either gong.  (However this may result in the bell "tapping" or jingling when you dial from another phone bridged across the same extension or CO line.)

For capacitor values 0.4 and higher, the ringer should work without too much tweaking of the bias spring or bell gongs. 

Try to avoid capacitor values above 0.6 because these lower the ringer impedance (raise the ringer equivalence) to a degree that may not work consistently on newer PBXs.   This because newer PBXs' power supplies are designed to reduce overall power consumption (significant over the life of a PBX that is always plugged in and always on) and that entails not providing the high levels of current output that were needed in earlier models. 

Note, especially on newer PBXs: no more than one oldschool phone per extension port, for the reason cited above: they may not provide enough ringing power to ring bells in two or more phones on a single port.  However you can parallel as many non-ringing phones as you like.   And you can have one phone on each of as many extensions as you like (and you'll get to hear them ring in a "cascade" of a couple at a time).

Offline Brinybay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4382
Re: 4-button 444, no dial tone
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 06:06:58 PM »
If your ringer is only ringing a couple of times and then behaving oddly, it may be that the ringer capacitor has started to die.  In which case any 0.2 to 0.5 microfarad capacitor rated at 200 volts or higher, will do the trick nicely.  

For capacitor values 0.2 to 0.4 microfarad, you may have to rotate the ringer gongs inward somewhat and/or move the bias spring to an "unbiased" position where the bell clapper does not have a tendency to return to one gong but can easily rest adjacent to either gong.  (However this may result in the bell "tapping" or jingling when you dial from another phone bridged across the same extension or CO line.)

For capacitor values 0.4 and higher, the ringer should work without too much tweaking of the bias spring or bell gongs.  

Try to avoid capacitor values above 0.6 because these lower the ringer impedance (raise the ringer equivalence) to a degree that may not work consistently on newer PBXs.   This because newer PBXs' power supplies are designed to reduce overall power consumption (significant over the life of a PBX that is always plugged in and always on) and that entails not providing the high levels of current output that were needed in earlier models.  

Note, especially on newer PBXs: no more than one oldschool phone per extension port, for the reason cited above: they may not provide enough ringing power to ring bells in two or more phones on a single port.  However you can parallel as many non-ringing phones as you like.   And you can have one phone on each of as many extensions as you like (and you'll get to hear them ring in a "cascade" of a couple at a time).

It seems to be ringing ok now.  I just put the dial back together after dismantling the finger wheel parts and cleaning them and some of the grime that was easy to reach.  I lost the black background behind the "A", not realizing it was just a plain black number card stuck to the metal part, and it went in the oxiclean bath.  I only rinsed off the plastic part with the "A", part of the "A" took a hit, but it's still mostly there.  As long as it functions ok, I don't get into doing a complete tear-down of the dial. I'll send it off to be done by a pro if that's what is needed.

I've had some fun with "cascading" phones:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILUvbF62yB4
« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 06:14:34 PM by Brinybay »
The idea that a four-year degree is the only path to worthwhile knowledge is insane.
 - Mike Row
e

Offline Dan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1960
  • 1957 WE 500-P
Re: 4-button 444, no dial tone
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2011, 06:17:52 PM »
Maybe the phone was in a brothel of some sort, with that scarlet letter "A"   ;)
"Imagine how weird telephones would look if our ears weren't so close to our mouths." - Steven Wright