Author Topic: Automatic Electric Dial Identification  (Read 27587 times)

Offline AE_Collector

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Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« on: November 27, 2011, 03:36:44 PM »
One thing that I have never really paid a lot of attention to is the various models of AE Dials.

I know that the earliest AE dial would be the large Strowger 10 digit dial that was then turned into the more familiar large Strowger 11 digit dial. These are the large dials found on Strowger Wooden wall phones and Strowger Pot Belly Sticks. By the way these were dials for 3 wire phones where 3 leads were needed back to the CO to put through a call.

Then they came out with the smaller dials and I believe that the Sunburst would have been the first one lasting only about 1 year until it was upgraded to what we now call the Mercedes Dial. These dials were all slightly smaller than the modern 3” dials, I think they were 2 7/8” inches or so in diameter. Some or maybe all of the Sunburst Dials were made for the 3 wire system as well. Either the Sunburst or the Mercedes variants were available for both 2 or 3 wire Exchange systems as CO's were converting to a 2 wire dialling system at the time.

There was a type 23 that was still smaller than 3” but it looked very much like the type 24 and up in the way it’s number card holder was designed.

After that came the Type 24 Dial presumably developed in about 1924 consistent with AE's model numbering scheme of the era where models began with the year.

Then in 1936 the type 24 was upgraded to a 24A36 which had what was called "Pawl Quieting" so that it didn't click while being wound up (not while it was returning to normal like the WECO dials that clicked).

Then on to type 51 and after that the type 52.

I have started this thread because even though I call myself AE_collector that doesn't mean that I know a whole lot about this stuff. I'm hoping that those who know anything about any particular model of AE dial will tell us what they know and maybe even post pictures of the front and the back and this can become a resource for information on AE's dials.

Terry

« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 01:53:19 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2011, 03:37:39 PM »
Here is a PDF that gives lots of great info on most of the AE dials from the Type 24 on up. I'll use this to build a shorter comparison chart and then hopefully add pictures. There is a comparison chart on page 8 of the 30 page document. G-Man pointed this document out to me.

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=70&Itemid=2

A few basics of AE dials from the document to get started:

Type 24 Dials (1924) clicked on wind up. Type 24A36 (1936) Dials had "Pawl Quieting" which quieted but didn't completely eliminate the clicking on wind up. You can still faintly hear he clicks.

Type 24 and 24A36 Dials had Stamped brass bodies with a silvery color to them as though they were tin plated. The next dial, the Type 51 (1951) and all later dials had the die cast aluminum/zinc bodies.

The Type 24, 24A36 & 51 Dials all had single contacts for pulse and shunt. Beginning with the Type 51A (1954) all contacts became Bifurcated (double contacts). The 51A also had tapped bosses on the back for mounting a rear dust cover.

The Type 52, 52F, 53A, 53AF, 53B, & 53BF Dials are the ones that allowed for the larger plastic number plates used on AE 80's & 90's. The "F" indicates wire wrap and soldered lead connections where the ones without the "F" are screw terminals like all of the predecesors. The "A" and "AF" are SATT Dials and the "B" and "BF" are SATT B Dials.

Type 54, 54AF & 54BF (1960) are all for use with AE 182 Desk Starlite Phones and later 192 Wall Starlite Phones. They have the Electroluminescent Disk in them and a square Numberplate. All are wirewrap/solder connections and the A & B versions are for SATT use as described with Type 53 Dials above.

I January 1974 all Dials from Type 52 through Type 54 were redesigned changing a lot of parts to plastic. The Shunt Cam was changed to Aluminum (from Brass I believe).

Type 154A Dial (1968) is the smaller Dial with moving Fingerstop for AE Styleline Phones. There were sigificant changes to this dial over the years as well.

Terry
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 10:12:39 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 03:38:38 PM »
I am going to reserve a few spots right at the top here so down the road I can sumarise all the information and pictures of various dial types and bring it to the top of this discussion.

Terry
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 10:54:16 PM by AE_collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2011, 03:42:57 PM »
Okay, that should do it . I haven't seen anyone do THIS before so thought I would give it a try since only 6 pictures can be included in one single post.

Let the replies begin!

Terry
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 01:55:15 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline wds

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 04:33:56 PM »
I've been fascinated by the AE dials, especially the early ones.  I've been taking notes every time I find information about these dials, and here's a brief summary of my notes:

1909 - type 9 dial, Sunburst
1911 - type 11, Mercedes dial card holder, cardboard number plate and glass cover.
1911 - type 11, mercedes dial card holder 2 3/4 " fingerwheel, ceramic number plate
1918 - type 18, mercedes dial card holder,  2 3/4" fingerwheel
1923 - type 23, came with the round number card holder.   2 7/8" fingerwheel, and larger finger holes.
1924 - type 24.  3" fingerwheel.

That's all I have, and it may not be correct.   The type 11 have little nubs on the back two mounting brackets, and a screw hole only on the front tab.  Later all three brackets had screw holes and no nubs.  I don't know yet what defines the type 18 dial other than the extra contacts.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 08:53:56 PM by wds »
Dave

Offline rdelius

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2011, 10:40:26 AM »
the type 23 had mounting holes in the standard pattern and the fingerwheel had larger holes
Robby

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2011, 01:13:26 PM »
the type 23 had mounting holes in the standard pattern and the fingerwheel had larger holes
Robby

Standard pattern like the type 24 and later dials?

Terry

Offline wds

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2011, 05:01:30 PM »
This is what I think of when I refer to a #23 dial -
Dave

Offline wds

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2011, 05:25:52 PM »
#11 on the left, #18 on the right.  Both of these fingerwheels are 2 3/4".  I purchased a half dozen of these dials before I figured out the differences.
Dave

Offline GG

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 12:41:37 AM »


51-A was the standard 3" dial in the 1970s and probably goes back to 1951 per what we're learning about AE nomenclature.

52 was the extended numberplate dial used in AE 80s, and probably goes back to 1952. 

These numbers were in use in the mid to late 1970s, and probably persisted until AE switched over to the dials with the plastic ratchet pawls. 


Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 12:51:07 AM »
51-A was the standard 3" dial in the 1970s and probably goes back to 1951 per what we're learning about AE nomenclature.

52 was the extended numberplate dial used in AE 80s, and probably goes back to 1952. 

So the Type 51 replaced the 24A36. If so the AE 40 & 50 would have had 24A36 in the first 11-12 years and then the type 51or 51A dials in the last 9-10 years.

Presumably the AE 80 was the first AE phone to need the extended number plate dial (52) and it didn't come out until 1954 at the very earliest I believe but as we know, AE was always pretty loose with numbering so they may have gone with 52 for a dial that was a 51A but with extended number plate just to keep the numbers adjacent to one another.

Lots of good info guys!

Terry
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 06:32:45 PM by AE_Collector »

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 12:54:43 AM »
This is what I think of when I refer to a #23 dial -

So it appears that the 11, 18 & 23 dials all have the older type mount and then the Type 24 changed to the more modern dial mount configuration. Anyone want to second this observation?

What other "small dials" have I missed between the LARGE Strowger dial and the more modern 3" dials? Just the Type 9 Sunburst? Thanks for the list WDS. This has helped me already becasue I didn't know that there were so many variations of the early dials and if I had ever heard the mosel numbers it had escaped me long ago.

Terry
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 01:33:10 PM by AE_collector »

Offline GG

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2011, 01:16:55 AM »


Dave, I have here in my hand an AE dial that looks like your 23 in the first plcture except the fingerwheel is chrome and there's a black stamped metal disc with a screw in the center rather than a number retainer.  The disc is indexed through a tiny little tab that fits into a hole in the fingerwheel just past digit 0.  The disc also has little holes or slots near the location of digits 4 / 5, and near the location of digit 0, that conform to the layout of the little tabs on the retainer rings used on AE dial blanks.

However the screw in the center of the disc is a round-head screw such that you can't put a retainer ring in place or the screw will bulge up into the paper number label and thereby cause the retainer to fail to be seated.  And the screw used in the center of the corresponding type of disc from an AE dial blank does not have the same threads. 

The fingerwheel is exactly 2  11/16" and the base of the dial is 2 3/4" in diameter (slightly larger than the fingerwheel). 

The backside of the dial lacks the little holes seen around the periphery of the dial in your type 23 photos, which appear to be at about 2:00 and 8:00 as seen on the photo there.  Those holes are also absent in the photo of the backside of your type 18 dial.  This makes me think I've got a type 18 here (I have another of these around somewhere, with a ceramic Keystone disc in the center instead of the black metal disc).

What do you think?  And also, can you post photos of what's behind the "Mercedes" number card retainer? 

--

I'm also looking at a dial that's basically a 51-A except it has the "military-style" off-normal contacts on the back (the extra contacts that open when the dial is off-normal, to make it compatible with WE 5H for use on 302s) and is marked 838G on the back, and is in a round box labeled D 84838 G. 


Offline GG

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2011, 01:24:20 AM »



Terry, you can't tell a 24-A-36 from a 51-A by casual visual inspection; from the front they look identical.   

You can either a) wind up the dial and listen: 24-A-36 will have a quiet ratchet sound and 51-A will be silent; or you can b) take off the fingerwheel and look for the following:

24-A-36: has a piece of piano wire over the ratchet pawl.  This is what gives it the "quiet ratchet sound" compared to the louder clicking of the type 24 when the dial is wound up. 

51-A: has a little ratchet-lifter, which makes it silent when wound up.  The ratchet-lifter is another very thin washer-like disc on the main shaft, with one end that holds the ratchet pawl off the ratchet wheel when the dial is being wound up.  The ratchet-lifter will typically have a rectangular piece that sticks out on the opposite side of the lifting surface, in the vicinity of between digits 4 and 5.  When you rotate the main shaft, that little rectangular bit will appear to lag behind slightly, which is how it's supposed to act as it lifts the pawl off the ratchet wheel.

Also there are differences in the AE logos on the backside of the dials:

Type 24:  From the rear, the AECO logo "AECO" appears in an oval on the backside in roughly the same location as the diamond that replaced it on later models. 

24-A-36: the logo is a diamond with a slightly larger dividing line (or two lines) between the letters AE and CO in the diamond, and the diamond is "taller" relative to its width, than the version of that logo used on the 51-A. 

51-A: the logo is a diamond with one dividing line between the AE and CO portions.


Offline stub

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 01:39:56 AM »
Terry,
          This was listed, a few yrs ago, as a Type 9, 1909 Sunburst . That's all I know about it.    stub  
                                                              ( Pics are copies)                                        
Kenneth Stubblefield        
  CRPF
   TCI