Author Topic: Automatic Electric Dial Identification  (Read 20575 times)

Offline Slal

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #90 on: November 12, 2014, 07:00:50 PM »
Yes, GTE clearly states 51's are 'die-cast' w/shunt & pulse springs mounted directly to base or 'chassis', etc.

Maybe that's what a member meant in an e-mail where he also included an attachment.

(paraphrase)  "To add to the confusion..." 

By accident, searching for docs on military phones/dials may have turned up same bulletin (#528) at TCI.

http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/document-repository/doc_details/1019-ae-bulletin-528-type-24a36-dial-ocr

Has me wondering if possible to tell difference from the back at all. : 0 !

Does anyone have a photo of that 'quieting' spring on pawl? 

I think GTE states spring is on tip while another AE says (paraphrase) "note quieting spring towards the middle of pawl..." 

I like puzzles... ; )

thx

--Bruce

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #91 on: May 10, 2015, 11:43:05 PM »
Typically the black die-cast dials are Type 24A36 bit I don't know if that is always the case.

The AE procedures are not always correct when listing information about older dials. Contrary to those documents, late 24A36 dials were cast bodied and Type 51A dials were used in the AE80.

The change between models is not clear from the rear. The introduction of the 24A36 was around the time the company logo changed from the oval to the diamond but some 24A36 dials have oval logos. And some dials have been rebuilt so identification is tricky.

There are a least two different quieting springs used on the 24A36 - the original being a piano wire.

AE used a friction device for full quieting on the Type 51 dial. The Kellogg and some of the Signal Corps versions used a different mechanism.

There are pictures in other threads - most recently about the Kellogg version of the Type 51 dial. (I presume there is a search function)

The Type 51A is identical to the Type 51 except that the spring contacts are bifurcated.

Jack
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 01:41:14 AM by Jack Ryan »

Offline Fabius

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #92 on: May 11, 2015, 09:09:04 AM »
What about the very first dials used in La Porte Indiana in the first automatic exchange? If memory serves me that exchange was capable of 100 lines and had 96 subscribers at its peak. They were simple make & break keys (like a simple telegraph key) but still a "dial". The building where it was located is still standing.

I did a Google search and I can not find a picture of one of the first dial phones. There is one in the La Porte County museum and I'll get over there to get some pictures and post them.
Tom Vaughn
La Porte, Indiana
ATCA Past President
ATCA #765
C*NET 1+ 821-9905

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #93 on: May 11, 2015, 09:13:02 AM »
What about the very first dials used in La Porte Indiana in the first automatic exchange? If memory serves me that exchange was capable of 100 lines and had 96 subscribers at its peak. They were simple make & break keys (like a simple telegraph key) but still a "dial". The building where it was located is still standing.

I did a Google search and I can not find a picture of one of the first dial phones. There is one in the La Porte County museum and I'll get over there to get some pictures and post them.

Yes, the first dials were lever operated and there were quite a few variations between that the first Type 24 dial. I thought the discussion was about dials derived from the Type 24.

Jack
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 09:16:04 AM by Jack Ryan »

Offline Fabius

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #94 on: May 11, 2015, 04:58:35 PM »
One thing that I have never really paid a lot of attention to is the various models of AE Dials.

I know that the earliest AE dial would be the Strowger 10 digit dial that  was then upgraded to the Strowger 11 digit dial. These are the large dials found on Strowger Wooden weall phones and Strowger Pot Belly Sticks. By the way these were dials for 3 wire phones where 3 leads were needed back to the CO to put through a call.

Terry

Nope, nothing was said in the opening post about this thread being limited to type 24. In fact as seen above it starts off mentioning the Strowgers.
Tom Vaughn
La Porte, Indiana
ATCA Past President
ATCA #765
C*NET 1+ 821-9905

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #95 on: May 11, 2015, 07:54:34 PM »
OK, sorry I didn't follow the thread back that far.

Those early dials are interesting. Amongst other things, they reflect the lack of confidence the engineers had in the ability of the subscribers to operate the dial.

There were never really any 11 digit dials; some of the dials has 11 finger holes but the '0' and the 'operator' hole generated the same number of pulses. The additional hole was provided so that they would not have to explain to the subscribers (and confuse them) that the '0' had two functions; it could be used to contact the operator and it could also be used as part of a subscriber's number.

There was an interlock so that the dial could not operate unless the receiver was lifted. This prevented the subscriber from starting to dial too early. There was also a variation that prevented the subscriber from forcing (speeding) the dial home (attached). This was re-introduced with the Sunburst dial.

The earliest of the rotary dials were not marked '0' - they were marked 'x' instead. It did not seem logical that '0' would generate 10 pulses. I believe the 'x' is a Roman 10.

By the way, these are called "three wire" but they did not actually use three wires; the "third wire" was, in fact, the ground return.

Jack

unbeldi

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #96 on: May 11, 2015, 08:44:25 PM »
The dial for the AE Strowger three-wire system was in fact a rather different beast than any of the later dials.  It did not generate a linear pulse sequence in the subscriber loop by loop disconnect (LD) signaling.  Instead, the dial pulsed by CLOSING two circuits separately. The two line wires separately operated on the vertical and rotary selectors of the exchange equipment, and the two wires were therefore not called ring and tip, but 'vertical' and 'rotary', each closing a separate circuit via the third connection, the ground.
There was no talk battery on the line during dialing, and the subscriber had no idea what was happening during that time, the phone was acoustically dead.

Here is a circuit diagram for this type phone, which was available as a wood wall phone and the desk stand shown. The dashed box "impulse" shows the two dial pulsing switches.  At the end of the call, the exchange equipment needed to be reset, and the phone therefore had a set of "release" contacts which were activated when the receiver was hung up.

I constructed the diagram based on the illustrations in the book by McMeen & Miller, ca. 1912, which has an excellent discussion of the topic. Without a diagram like this it is almost impossible to deduce the operation of this dial, and the whole telephone in fact, from any of the contemporary drawings.  If you want to understand these telephones, you need THIS diagram, and I have never seen an understandable diagram anywhere else.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 09:15:47 PM by unbeldi »

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #97 on: May 11, 2015, 08:49:37 PM »
Yes, very different indeed. Some have spoken about making an interface so that these dials can be used - I don't know if one was made.

Early phones had no CO talk battery at all - they were local battery. And manual ringing.

Jack

Offline markosjal

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #98 on: June 15, 2017, 08:49:59 PM »
Anyone here have images of model  80/90 dial mounting. I do not have one in hand and would like to see the mounting assemby for the 52/53 type dials. I am assuming 80 and 90 use same dial mounting.
Phat Phantom's phreaking phone phettish

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #99 on: June 16, 2017, 10:06:11 AM »
Not a very complete answer but this topic has pictures that show the way the steel bracket mounted to the back of the dial on an AE90 clips onto a stud on each side of the dial mounting frame. The AE80 dial mount is the same. Older versions were similar but had a screw rather than the stud.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=14899.0

Terry

Offline rdelius

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Re: Automatic Electric Dial Identification
« Reply #100 on: June 16, 2017, 10:16:27 AM »
The type 80 and type 90M sets have different dial mounts .The earlier  type 90 with the modified type 80 base might be the same