Author Topic: Auto Dialer Cards  (Read 4152 times)

Offline LarryInMichigan

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Auto Dialer Cards
« on: January 22, 2012, 10:48:57 AM »
I bought a box of 16 unused auto dialer cards as pictured below at the flea market this morning.  I know very little about these things.  I realize that I might not be playing with a full deck :D, but can someone tell what they are worth?  Should I try to sell the whole set or a few at a time?

Thank You

Larry


Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2012, 11:40:12 AM »
Thanks for the picture Larry, I have never seen the cards up close like that. Does the autodialer have a mechanism to punch these out or does the user do it? If the user does it I would imagine a fair number of them would be ruined by slipping up and punching the wrong spot since 2 dots have to be removed for each digit plus it looks as though the stop dot has to be removed on all but the last digit. Are the cards read mechanically or with light?

Terry

Offline paul-f

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2012, 11:57:41 AM »
The cards are punched manually and read mechanically.

See any of the BSPs for the 660-series sets, including:
http://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=2319&Itemid=2
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Offline Russ Kirk

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2013, 02:21:23 PM »
I just received my WE 660-A1 Auto Dialer phone.  Woo Hoo!  This is phone I have been seeking for a long time. 
It came with a pack of cards.  I also had a pack already and found I had 3 different styles in the two packs.

One for TT  dialer as shown in Larry’s message.  (I will call this the TT version)
One without the zero in the 258 line. ( I will call this the R1 version)
One with the zero in the 258 line ( I will call this the R2 version)

I looked at the BSPs on the TCi site and they only show the R2 version.   The BSP shows how to punch the holes,  essentially, you have to make two punches for each number.  In the R1 version  it does not show a second zero,  so the user may not know how to indicate a zero to dial. 

So I think the R1 version is an older version and they issued the R2 version to resolve this error.
Do you think my guess is correct?

The BSPs also show the packet of cards have a part number of P-24E238, this matches one of my boxes. 
The BSP says the index cards have a part number of P-13E363. 
My empty index box shows a different part number P-13E353. 

Does anyone have a set of the index cards and can post a photo?
Does anyone know why the index cards have different part numbers?

I plan to check the wiring and voltage from the transformer BEFORE I plug the phone in to see if it works.
Does anyone have any other recommendations I do before plugging in the set?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 02:26:58 PM by Russ Kirk »
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Offline LarryInMichigan

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2013, 02:24:40 PM »
I still have my box of cards, and I would like to get rid of them.  If anyone is interested, please contact me.

Larry

Offline paul-f

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2013, 04:02:08 PM »
Sharp eyes, Russ!

I haven't noticed any without the 0, but haven't been looking for it.  Time to sort through the cards!

I've also  noticed several different ways of coding the card boxes, but haven't studied it.  Looking through a few pictures, I quickly found boxes marked:

P21F752 3-74  (packed with a 2660-type set)
812 167 526    (packed with a 2660-type set)

P24E238  1966 (with Teletype Corp on the box)

I'll look for others in my collection later.  Perhaps others will share theirs as well.

Here are some index photos...
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Offline poplar1

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2013, 05:11:32 PM »
I have never seen the "R1" version without the 0 in the 2580 line. However, if you think about it this makes sense for the time when there were only rotary card dialers (1964??). Or even 10-button Touch-Tone card dialers.

We are used to a Touch-Tone dial which produces a low tone for the row and a high tone for the column. Dialing a 5 uses the low tone (2nd row) common to 4, 5 and 6 and the high tone (2nd column)  common to 2, 5, 8 and 0. So no other button will give the combination of the 2nd row and the 2nd column. The standard card uses the same layout.

(On an older Touch-Tone dial, if you press two or more adjacent buttons, you will get the low or high tone common to that row or column.)

On a 12-button Touch-Tone dial, pushing 0 gives you the combination of the 4th row (*, 0, #) and the 2nd column (2,5,8, 0). On a 10-button dial, 0 is still the 4th row (horizontal) an 2nd column (vertical), even though there is no * or #, because the central office needs two simultaneous  tones.

Still speaking about the 10-button dial, there is no other number besides 0 that uses the 4th row. Therefore, a card dialer using the R1 card must recognize the one hole punched out in the 0 row, and it does not also need a hole punched in the 258 (later 2580) column.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if with a R2 card you punched out only the 0 in the row containing *, 0 and #, but did not punch out the hole for the 2,5,8, 0 column. Would it still work anyway? If not, are the earliest rotary card dialers coded differently?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 05:15:15 PM by poplar1 »
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Offline paul-f

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2013, 06:52:01 PM »
The initial card dialers used a 40A dial.  It didn't require a transformer but was polarity sensitive and had some other issues, so was relatively quickly replaced by the 41A dial.  It's possible they behaved differently and that "R1" cards were for the 40A and were revised for the 41A dial.  It's worth checking the BSPs to see if there's a hint there.

There's more on the history of Bell System automatic dialers in the January 2011 Singing Wires, including info on some of the predecessors to the 660-type dialers.

When I went back to the material I had set aside for a second article in that series, I did find several of the "R1" style cards.

In addition, it seems the different numbering on the card boxes sorts out nicely based on the layout of the cards and one change in number format to match various dials and a change to a 9-digit product code:

Digits 1-0 for rotary or 1600-type dialers:
  P24E238  -- dates from 7-65 to 7-74
  812 452 381  -- undated

Digits 1-0 plus star and diamond for early 2600-type dialers:
  P28E382 -- dates from 7-70 to 7-74

Digits 1-0 plus * and # for later 2600-type dialers
  P21F752 -- dates from 9-66 to 3-74
  812 167 526 -- undated

Digits 1-0 plus *, #, a, b, c and d for F-type dialers
  840 360 564 -- undated

Index cards:
  P-13E353
  P-13E363
  811 353 630

I don't have a box or photo for the "R1" cards.  Does anyone have that info?

It's possible they revised the index cards when they revised the cards.  Russ: do you see a difference between your index cards and the later style?

Also, the date ranges above are from a small sample.  Please report earlier or later dates.

Here's a photo that includes the star and diamond card.

(photo added)


  
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 07:10:52 PM by paul-f »
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Offline Russ Kirk

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2013, 07:15:11 PM »
Here is a photo of my two boxes, they both contained dialer cards and not the indexes.
- Russ Kirk
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Offline paul-f

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2013, 07:21:21 PM »
Thanks, Russ.  That would seem to complete the list.

Western Electric Card Dialer Card Styles

Digits 1-0 for early rotary dialers:
  P13E353 -- date 1-63 (sample of one)

Digits 1-0 for later rotary or 1600-type dialers:
  P24E238  -- dates from 7-65 to 7-74
  812 452 381  -- undated

Digits 1-0 plus star and diamond for early 2600-type dialers:
  P28E382 -- dates from 7-70 to 7-74

Digits 1-0 plus * and # for later 2600-type dialers
  P21F752 -- dates from 9-66 to 3-74
  812 167 526 -- undated

Digits 1-0 plus *, #, a, b, c and d for F-type dialers
  840 360 564 -- undated

Index cards:
  P-13E353
  P-13E363
  811 353 630
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Offline paul-f

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2013, 01:08:18 AM »
As usual, the BSPs provide entertaining reading.

Apparently, the second "0" punch was not required for rotary sets, so was not included in the original card.  The 26B dial in the 1660-type dialers apparently requires the second punch, as the "new" card and instructions are in the issue 1 BSP.

Early rotary dialer BSPs instruct us to only make one punch for a 0.  One BSP found from 7/63 mentions the card transition and states that the number of 0 punches is determined by the card type.   :o :o

That would seem to indicate that the rotary dialer doesn't care if the 258 column is punched or not.

Later BSPs seem to suggest that there should ALWAYS be two punches per digit -- even 0 -- whether it's marked on the card or not.  Someone probably figured out that eventually someone would try to migrate their cards from a rotary to a touch tone dialer.

To test the theory, we should try a card with only one 0 punch in a 1660-type dialer and see what it does.

502-661-101, issue 1, July 1963 includes instructions on lunching both styles, with this figure...

  (Notice it doesn't contain a zero in the phone number.  >:()
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 01:10:40 AM by paul-f »
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Offline Vern P

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2013, 01:54:31 AM »
I have a TT Card dialer for sale.  This is mod and the color is Beige. In good shape, with about 25 un-used card.   Priced at $200 with shipping. Open to offer also.

Wirte me at vern1435@webtv.net  if intrested.

Vern P

Offline Dave F

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2013, 03:01:16 PM »
<snip>...Thanks, Russ.  That would seem to complete the list.
Not quite!

Digits 1-0 plus "star", A, FO, F, I, P for 3666A1A & A1B AUTOVON Card Dialers

Dialing Cards: P-29E718 -- approximate dates used: 1966-1980

Index Cards:  P-29E719 -- approximate dates used: 1966-1980


« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 03:03:34 PM by Dave F »

Offline paul-f

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2013, 04:21:20 PM »
Thanks for further completing the list here Dave!

I had them on my site, but didn't happen to include them in the above list.

  http://www.paul-f.com/weCardDialers.htm#DialerCards

Could it be that we finally have them all?
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Offline Dave F

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Re: Auto Dialer Cards
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2013, 03:15:09 PM »
Here is a Bell System publicity photo from 1962.  The phone is a model 661, the very first Card Dialer to go into mass production.   You can see that the cards are of the early original design, without the 0 in the 258 row.

DF
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 01:02:53 PM by Dave F »