Author Topic: Took a chance, 1949 500?  (Read 5682 times)

Offline G-Man

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2012, 07:13:06 PM »
There was never  any question as to there intention of using neoprene for the cords jacket. But as is stated the were still having problems with it smudging clothes right up to the introduction of the new 500-set.

Obviously they were have serious problems with getting the correct formulation of neoprene for handset cords but were finally able to get it right soon after the introduction of the 500-set.

QUESTION:  What ls the jacket made of?

     MR. JONES:  It is neoprene. 

That is still subject to investigation in the Laboratories.  In any jacketed cord, one of the problems is the possibility of the surface rubbing on light-colored material and soling it. So we have to guard very carefully against the matter of smudging. 

The question of the best jacket is still a matter of investigation here in the laboratories.

But in order to get things rolling, we are using the best material available.
Consequently some of the early sets used fabric cords. There are collectors on both the TCI and ATCA list that have early 500-sets with (straight) cloth cords.

By the way, I am well aware of this book since I have the original in my library along with others regarding the initial engineering and introduction of the 500-set. It's always interesting as to how after these scans have circulated after awhile that the credits are eventually deleted from the original file.

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2012, 07:27:20 PM »
Well, I know I don't have all the answers.  Like everyone else, I read and report on what I have read and form the conclusions based on that.  You are providing new information, and it is much appreciated.

It would be interesting to see how the handle-side cord stay and the way the cord exits the handle. 

-Bill G

Offline Adam

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2012, 07:45:34 PM »
But in order to get things rolling, we are using the best material available.
Consequently some of the early sets used fabric cords.

I don't read that the same way you do.  When they said they are using the best material available at 500 set launch time, what I hear is "we'll use the best neoprene we can find and maybe it will smudge a little but we'll get that fixed really soon".

Quote
There are collectors on both the TCI and ATCA list that have early 500-sets with (straight) cloth cords.

Doesn't mean they came out of Western Electric that way...  Those could have easily been local field modifications.
Adam Forrest
Los Angeles Telephone - A proud part of the global C*Net System
C*Net 1-383-4820

Offline Adam

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2012, 09:24:06 PM »
There are collectors on both the TCI and ATCA list that have early 500-sets with (straight) cloth cords.

I'm not doubting you.  But, are we sure these were 500's, and not 5302's?  Although 5302's also commonly had straight, neoprene handset cords, I can easily see an early 5302 with an F handset and a fabric cord attached.
Adam Forrest
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C*Net 1-383-4820

Offline McHeath

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2012, 01:00:06 AM »
Well Harry here's hoping that you hit the jackpot!  Who knows, maybe there is gold in them thar hills, you can be a true 49er then.

Quote
Good luck. I have a 49er  and was lucky to get it.

Whoa!  I'd love to see it!  Got any pics?

As for the cord debate, I've read that same report and interpret it as the cords were all to be neoprene and not fabric.  The fabric ones I've seen seem to be field modifications, but who knows.  It would be interesting indeed if they put fabric on 500s from day 1. 

My mom, age 82, upon seeing my 12/50 model 500 commented on the straight cord and how excited she was when they got their first coiled cord, "springy cord" as she called it.  That was late 50's.  I've got a straight cord on a 500 dated late 59', so they were still making them for a long time.


Offline G-Man

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2012, 04:20:24 AM »
Well Harry here's hoping that you hit the jackpot!  Who knows, maybe there is gold in them thar hills, you can be a true 49er then.

Quote
Good luck. I have a 49er  and was lucky to get it.

Whoa!  I'd love to see it!  Got any pics?

As for the cord debate, I've read that same report and interpret it as the cords were all to be neoprene and not fabric.  The fabric ones I've seen seem to be field modifications, but who knows.  It would be interesting indeed if they put fabric on 500s from day 1. 

My mom, age 82, upon seeing my 12/50 model 500 commented on the straight cord and how excited she was when they got their first coiled cord, "springy cord" as she called it.  That was late 50's.  I've got a straight cord on a 500 dated late 59', so they were still making them for a long time.



First off, this collector is extremely knowledgeable about early 500-sets. In fact he contributed to a series of articles/papers regarding them. He definitely knows the difference between 5300 and 500 instruments. It is his and others opinion that the fabric cords were factory installed.

It certainly would not make any sense whatsoever for W.E. to manufacture cloth cords for G-handsets after-the-fact for field replacements.

Both he and others have performed serious research on the introduction of 500-sets. If someone else is equally as knowledgeable on this topic it would be interesting to hear the results of their research.

Apparently most do not know the history of modern coiled cords; I don't recall the exact date but it was a few years latter when Whitney-Blake introduced the Koiled Kord. IIRC, Kellogg (or vice-versa) bought the manufacturing rights and Automatic Electric, Stromberg Carlson AND, Western Electric initially sourced coiled cords from them. Prior to rubber jacketed coiled cords, cloth covered coiled cords for chief operator's headsets and telephone handsets were available but were not promoted since the coils did not hold their shape very well.

Further data includes:

Looking through our modest archives has brought about conflicting
production numbers for the 500A/B.

According to "Events in Telephone History", published by the AT&T Public
Relations Department in 1964, the following was entered for 1949:

"Some 600 new sets were put in service during 1949 to check performance,
convenient and light in weight," says the Annual Report for 1949. Talking
and hearing qualities were an improvement over previous sets, and the
loudness of the set automatically is adjusted to compensate for its
distance from the central office."

Entered for June 2, 1950:

"First supply of new 500-type handset telephones announced. About 180,000
were expected to come off production lines during the balance of the year.

However, another researcher, states:

"The first production run of the new 500 set was made in November 1949, and
consisted of 4,000 units in predictable black. (Some of these early sets
were equipped with cloth cords
)."





Offline paul-f

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2012, 08:23:10 AM »
It would be helpful if you quote your sources.
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Offline Adam

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2012, 09:55:51 AM »
Like I said, I wasn't doubting you, just throwing out all the possibilities.

OK. So, here's what I want to know.  If there were early 500s equipped with cloth cords, what did the cords look like?

1.  Did they have 4 conductors (like 500 set cords) or 3 conductors (like 302 set cords)?

2.  Were the receiver wires longer than the transmitter wires and extend themselves through the handset (like 500 set cords) or were the receiver wires short and need to be extended with additional wire parts (like 302 set cords)?

3.  What did the cord's handset-end strain relief look like?  Was it neoprene so that it would seat into the strain relief holder in the G handed cup?  Did it work some other way?

I find it difficult to believe that either (a) there was a different G handset for these cloth cords that had a different strain relief arrangement or (b) these cloth cords were installed on G handsets by Western Electric with no strain relief at all.

So, anybody know?  I'd LOVE to see a pic.
Adam Forrest
Los Angeles Telephone - A proud part of the global C*Net System
C*Net 1-383-4820

Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2012, 12:07:52 PM »
It would be helpful if you quote your sources.

I thought that G-Man was referring to McHeath. He quoted McHeath and then followed with:

First off, this collector is extremely knowledgeable
In fact he contributed to a series of articles/papers
He definitely knows the difference between 5300 and 500 instruments.
It is his and others opinion that the fabric cords were factory installed.


Am I misreading G-Man's post? If so I will go back and remove that quote from his post. Maybe it is as we discussed recently that many people automatically hit the "quote" button (since it is right there on each post) rather than using the "reply" button which is down at the bottom of the most recent post. There is no point in "quoting" the immediately preceeding post unless quoting just a couple of the words to make it obvious exactly what your reply is referring to.

Terry

« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 03:09:59 PM by AE_collector »

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2012, 12:27:12 PM »
G-Man, help us out here.  You said:


First off, this collector is extremely knowledgeable about early 500-sets. In fact he contributed to a series of articles/papers regarding them.


Please remind us where to find the information.  If you don't feel comfortable in divulging "his" name, then please point to the research so we can see.  I don't think anyone wants to dispute this for the sake of disputing.  We are all wanting to get the story straight.

Thanks.
-Bill G

Offline paul-f

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2012, 01:46:08 PM »

However, another researcher, states:

"The first production run of the new 500 set was made in November 1949, and
consisted of 4,000 units in predictable black. (Some of these early sets
were equipped with cloth cords
)."[/i]


Who is the other researcher?

It looks like material we already reviewed from the BSTJ (4/51).

Also, I have previously stated that I believe the entry in Events in Telecommunications History only relates to ONE of the field trial cities.  Events was originally published by the PR department, using press releases as the primary info source.  I personally saw a release for local publication in St. Louis describing the 600 telephones that were to be on trial there.

I've summarized most of our previous discussion for those who don't want to read the entire thread - Now the Story Can be Told.

http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=2394.0

The summary is here - and lists sources:
  http://www.paul-f.com/we500_Early.html

New sources and info are always welcome.  I'm sure there's a lot more to be learned.
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Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2012, 02:37:37 PM »
Good work on that summary Paul. A good reference.

Terry

Offline Phonesrfun

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2012, 02:45:50 PM »
I love the summary too, Paul.  Great work.
-Bill G

Offline canuckphoneguy

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2012, 07:53:45 AM »
So interesting to read all of this telephone history!

Hope it's a '49!

Offline Dan

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Re: Took a chance, 1949 500?
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2012, 09:59:51 PM »
Whoa!  I'd love to see it!  Got any pics?

Search for the "got a 49er" thread and you can see mine
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 10:28:39 PM by AE_collector »
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