Author Topic: Western Electric desk stand base and perch markings  (Read 10093 times)

Offline Sargeguy

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Western Electric desk stand base and perch markings
« on: May 10, 2012, 06:33:01 PM »
Western Elctric candlesticks typically have patent dates around the bottom of the stems. There are several types I have seen or have in my collection.  There is a general order in which they appear and they are associated with certain other parts that give a rough indication of age but these are not hard and fast rules.  Here is a brief list of the ones I know of:

Unmarked-The earliest type?  Typically found on "Hershey's Kiss" perch phones such as the TYPE 22 and the earliest 20-B phones among others(?) Can have either a cast metal (iron or pot metal) stem bolt or the newer type.  Can have either the "screw" shaft or the later types. Has either a hard-rubber grommet or crimped one.  The metal cord hole grommets are later. under some of these metal grommets there is a threaded hole for the earliest screw-in hard rubber grommets- the metal grommet being added later. There are a number of different configurations for seating the stem.

WESTERN ELECTRIC COMPANY-Generally found on early solid perch type candlesticks

WESTERN ELECTRIC COMPANY/PAT IN USA AUG 16 04 SEPT 13 04-Generally found on later solid perch candlesticks

WESTERN ELECTRIC COMPANY/PATENT APPD FOR/PAT IN USA AUG 16 04 SEPT 13 04-"PAT APPD FOR" refers to the 1915 patent.  Have seen examples in both black and nickel plate.

WESTERN ELECTRIC COMPANY/PAT IN USA AUG 16 04 SEPT 13 04 JAN 26 1915-Generally found on "drawn" perch candlesticks.  Member wds has a steel 40-AL with these dates

WESTERN ELECTRIC COMPANY/MADE IN USA/PAT IN USA JAN 26 1915-These are all steel with Bower-Barff finish.  I don't think these were made in brass.  Found on 40ALs
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 10:43:46 PM by Sargeguy »
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 02:49:51 PM »
Early Types

88-C

The 88-C is found on the so-called Pacific Telephone "San Francisco Potbelly" manufactured in a joint venture by California Electrical Works and Western Electric.




Single-Piece Solid Perch a.k.a. "Hershey's Kiss"

There were earlier examples of desk stands but the Western Electric TYPE 22 was the first candlestick mass-produced by Western Electric to have the classic candlestick shape.  Here are a few examples from the collection:








The TYPE 22/20-B/20-PC-Some of these early phones had a long career.  This one started as a TYPE 22, then was re-designated a 20-B, then finally a 20-PC.  I had another example marked "20-AL" in a similar fashion. 


This example from eBay appears to be a 51-AL with a single-piece solid perch.



Some had no markings.  These are often found on candlesticks from smaller manufacturers who used WE parts.



They came in black as well.



Early 20-Bs also featured this style







Here is an interesting example of a 20-S that featured a "PATENT PENDING" patent mark.  It was re-stamped once the patent was approved.  20-S is obliterated, then stamped again on the front of the perch.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 11:05:51 AM by Sargeguy »
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 02:55:21 PM »
Two-Piece Solid Perches (in progress)


The two piece solid perch is made of two seperate pieces that screw together.  They usually are associated with the nickel-plated desk stands of the Pre-WWI era and bear markings such as 20-B, 20-S and so on.  At this time the Interphone market was taking off for Western Electric, and so there is a huge variety of model numbers found on solid perches, compared to later and earliar phones.  Here is a solid perch 151AL:



Solid perches have the hook attached by a pin through the base of the perch, and the plate attaches by two screws. 



Drawn Perches have the hook attached to the plate, and the plate is attached to the perch via two screws.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 12:17:04 PM by Sargeguy »
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 02:56:01 PM »
Drawn Perches (in progress)

The "drawn" style perch is made from a single piece of brass folded into a perch.  The inside of the perch is hollow compared to earliar perches.  This style was manufactured for the longest period of any perch type, starting at the beginning of WWI and continuing until WWII (they were issued if not actually manufactured).  Phones with this style almost always came in black, notable exceptions beuing the 20-PC (nickel) and the 40-AL (Bower-Barff).  Models included the 20-AL, 40-AL, 50-AL and 151AL.  

« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 09:37:42 PM by Sargeguy »
Greg Sargeant
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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2013, 12:20:15 AM »
This is intended to be a comprehensive list of Western Electric perch markings beginning with the TYPE 21 "Erie" and ending with the 151-AL.  Most of the information contained herein is from the Western Electric 1908 and 1916 catalogs, the TCI wiring diagrams library,  although some information is taken from online auction records, posts on this forum, and my personal collection.  ***Please note that I use the terms "Single-Piece Solid Perch" and "Two-Piece Solid Perch" to describe the two types of solid perches.  The term "Hershey's Kiss" is not descriptive enough and is often misapplied, especially since a drawn perch looks more like a Hershey's kiss than what I refer to as the "Single-Piece Solid Perch"

Single-Piece Solid a.k.a."Hershey's Kiss" Perch

21:  "Erie" model candlestick

22:  Appeared on Single-Piece Solid Perch type candlesticks.  The 22 marking is often obliterated/XXX'd out and re-marked as a 20-B or even a 20-AL
Finish: Nickel or Black
Transmitter:7-digit or later
Receiver:  122-W

20-A:  Found a horizontally mounted sticks used on repair boards.  Has rounded "ears" and a hole through the perches "skirt".



20-B:  For regular local battery bridging or central battery service:             
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter: 229w, *229* or 7-digit
Receiver: 122-W
Cord: 234


The 20-B designation appeared on "Hershey's Kiss" and "Solid Perch" type candlesticks.  Early versions had patent dates, later versions did not.

20=Single-Piece Solid Type.  Maybe intended to have a letter designation?  Here is an example of a 20-S that was XXX'd out and redesignated 20-AL:





Single-Piece Solid types were recycled throughout the candlestick era.  In addition to the the 20-AL, I have one marked as a 20-PC.


Two-Piece Perch Types:

The following phones are usually nickel plated.  They were available in the 1908 catalog with or without transmitter, receiver and cords. Most of the designations listed below are for Interphone service. 

20-B (see above)



Some 20-Bs appear to have had a Japanned Black finish applied and were supplied as cheaper alternatives to newer deskstands for installation in Interphone Systems.  The 1916 Telephone Apparatus Catalog seems to have them.

20-C:  Operatorís telephone set with cordless private exchange. 
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter: 229w
Receiver: 122-W
Cord: 293

20-F: Central battery service, used with No.7 coin collector
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter: 229w
Receiver: 122-W
Cord: 232

20-H: Interphone
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter: 229w
Receiver: 122-W
Cord: 289

20-J: operatorís telephone set.  No switchhook
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter: 229w
Receiver: 128-W
Cord: 6ft. No. 178 cord, 6ft. No. 10 cord, 9 in. No. 179 cord.

20-M: Central battery service w/ transmitter cut-out button
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter: 229w
Receiver: 122-W
Cord: 234

20-P: Local battery bridging or central battery service
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter:269w or 271w
Receiver: 122-W
Cord: 331

20-R
Finish:
Transmitter:
Receiver:
Cord:

20-S: For regular local battery bridging or central battery service:             
Finish: Black
Transmitter: 229w, *229* or 7-digit
Receiver: 122-W
Cord:

20-T:  Interphone. 
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter:369
Receiver:



The model 20-T appears to be variable.  I have had examples with patent dates and without.  I have seen examples on the internet with call buttons on the base.  One of mine had a small 269 transmitter, the other had a 229w.  A search of auctions turns up one with a 302w transmitter and 122 receiver.

40-G:  Handheld with a shortened "Hershey's Kiss" perch
Finish: Black
Transmitter:229
Receiver:
Cord:

[size=15
pt]SPECIAL SETS[/size]


"SP" Desk stands.  These are desk stands with "SP-" stamped in front of the designation.  Unknown what the SP stands for, most likely "SPECIAL".  Interestingly, both examples have non-WE receivers.  They include the following:

SP-20-H



SP-20-R Hand-held model with a watchcase receiver used for radio? dispatching?  The transmitter and finish varies.


Drawn Perch Type


These phones had two-digit designations and were primarily nickel-plated.  These were also available without transmitter and receiver, and some of the transmitters supplied with complete phones were changed over time.

20-AB:  Series
Finish:
Transmitter:
Receiver:
Cord:


20-AC
Bracket or arm mounted.
Finish: black
Transmitter:
Receiver:
Cord:

20-AG  Interphone connected to a 12-Button box
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter:302w
Receiver: 122, 143, or 144
Cord:

20-AH  Interphone connected to a 12-Button box
Finish: Black
Transmitter:302w
Receiver: 122, 143, or 144
Cord: 406 and 389

20-AK  Series central battery service
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter:293w
Receiver: 171-W
Cord: 406 and 389

20-ALFor regular bridging and magneto service.  Insulated transmitter.
Finish: Black
Transmitter:291w or 329w
Receiver: 122, 143, or 144
Cord: 450

20-AM Series central battery service
Finish: Black
Transmitter:293w
Receiver: 171-W
Cord: 406 and 389

20-AP  Cut out switch on the side
Finish: Blackl
Transmitter:229w
Receiver: 122
Cord: 406 and 389

20-AS:  Interphone with 4 buttons in base
Finish: Black
Transmitter:302-W
Receiver: 197-W
Cord: 494, 360, 466 (2)

20-AT:  Interphone with 8-Buttons in base.  Alternate description:  Seperately mounted  direct current vibrating bell.
Finish: Black
Transmitter:302-W
Receiver: 197-W
Cord: 494, 360, 466 (2)

20-AU:  Direct current vibrating buzzer mounted in base
Finish: Black
Transmitter:
Receiver:
Cord:

20-AW: Interphone with buzzer in base?
Finish: Black
Transmitter:302-W
Receiver: 122, 143, or 144
Cord: 452, 360, 466 (2)

20-BC
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter:291w or 329w
Receiver: 122, 143, or 144
Cord:

20-BE
Finish: Black
Transmitter:
Receiver: 122, 143, or 144
Cord: 406 and 412

20-BF
Finish: Black
Transmitter:302-W
Receiver: 197-W
Cord: 494, 360, 466 (2)

20-BG:  Interphone deskstand with ringing button in the stem, signal buzzer in the base
Finish: Black
Transmitter:302-W
Receiver: 122, 143, or 144
Cord: 452, 360, 466 (2)





Interphones are highly variable and it is common for the phone perch mark  to have no relation to the specifications in the catalog, as with the 20-BG above

20-BJ:  Interphone deskstand with ringing button in the stem, signal buzzer in the base
Finish: Black
Transmitter:302-W
Receiver: watchcase
Cord:

20-CN:  Series
Finish:
Transmitter:
Receiver:
Cord:

20-DA:  Appears to have been used as a dispatch phone
Finish: Black
Transmitter:
Receiver: headphone
Cord:



20-MC For central battery service, using transmitter cutout button
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter:229w
Receiver: 122, 143, or 144
Cord:

20-PC: For above-ground use
Finish: Nickel
Transmitter:291w or 329w
Receiver: 122, 143, or 144
Cord:

20-SC: Local battery bridging or central battery service
Finish: Black
Transmitter:229w or 329w
Receiver: 122, 143, or 144
Cord:



40-AL
Finish: Bower-Barf
Transmitter:
Receiver: 144
Cord:

40-CM
Finish: Bower-Barf
Transmitter:
Receiver: 144
Cord:

41-CJ:  Series
Finish:
Transmitter:
Receiver:
Cord:





42-AB:  Series
Finish:
Transmitter:
Receiver:
Cord:


44-BG Interphone
Finish: Bower-Barf
Transmitter:302w
Receiver: Graybar 179
Cord:

46-B:  Series
Finish:
Transmitter:
Receiver:
Cord:



48-D:  Series
Finish: black
Transmitter:635A "Bulldog"
Receiver: headset
Cord:

DIAL CANDLESTICKS

50-AL
Finish: Black
Transmitter:
Receiver: 144
Cord:

50-CM Transmitter cut-out button
Finish: Black
Transmitter:
Receiver: 144
Cord:

51-AL
Finish: Black
Transmitter:
Receiver: 144
Cord:

51-C
Finish: Black
Transmitter:353w
Receiver: 144
Cord:

52-AB
Finish: Black
Transmitter:
Receiver: watchcase
Cord:

Anti-Sidetone Sets



120-AL
Finish: Black
Transmitter:
Receiver:
Cord:

These are usually just re-marked 20-Als

140-AL
Finish: Bower-Barf
Transmitter:
Receiver:
Cord:

These are usually just re-marked 40-Als

151-AL
Finish: Black
Transmitter:635A "Bulldog"
Receiver: 706A
Cord:

151-ALs were created during the Depression through WW2 to use up spare parts when the economic crisis and the War curtailed production of new phones.  Although the classic 151-AL came from the factory refurb shop with a "Bulldog" transmitter, 706A receiver, and 4H or 5H dial, many existing 50-AL and 51ALs were upgraded to anti-sidetone and feature earlier 323 or 337 transmitters, 144 AW receivers and 2AA or 2AB dials.  Some appear to be constructed from 20-ALs and older deskstands, I have a solid perch that was stamped 151-AL, and have seen a TYPE 22 "Hershey's kiss" that was used on a 151AL.


151-R  I could not find an actual example of this phone but there is a wiring diagram in the TCI library
Finish: Black
Transmitter:635A "Bulldog"
Receiver:
Cord:

152-AB
Finish: Black
Transmitter:635A "Bulldog"
Receiver: watchcase
Cord:
Similar to the 151-AL but with a headset receiver and corresponding hook.

Here is a reference to the Wistful Vista page that contains additional information:

http://www.oldtimephones.com/perchmarkings.html


***THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS***
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 03:34:19 PM by Sargeguy »
Greg Sargeant
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Offline dencins

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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2013, 01:07:58 AM »
I recently plated a solid perch with the number 20 but no letter.  First time I have seen one without a letter and I could not find any information on it.  I can not definitively tell the original finish since it had been refinished (poorly) several times and had mostly been stripped back to brass.  It had areas of worn nickel but had spots of black paint in the harder to reach areas.  It looked like the paint was over older nickel plating but that would be just my opinion.  The transmitter was a 229.

Dennis Hallworth 

Offline Sargeguy

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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2013, 10:28:39 PM »
What style of perch was it?
Greg Sargeant
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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 12:58:26 AM »
It had a Hershey Kiss type.

Dennis Hallworth

Offline Phonewizard

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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2013, 02:56:33 AM »
I bought a phone on e-bay.  Got it for a good price.  Whoever had it use some sort of grinder to strip the phone down to the brass and wood.  Then they sloped a thick coat of polyurethane on it.  It looked really bad. Especially the brass parts.  I used paint remover to strip the polyurethane off the brass parts then spent hours sanding the grinder marks off.  I then repainted it black.  I desided to leave the wood box as I got it since it did not look that bad.  The reason I bought it is I never seen a phone like this one.  The perch is marked 42AB. The phone has to have a headset since a receiver on a hook will not clear the box.  I could not find any reference to this phone in the WE catalogs I have or in any other book I have.  I brought it to the 2013 Lancaster show and the consensus I got from other collectors is that this phone was made by one the railroad companies using mostly Western Electric parts.  If anyone can add to what this phones history is all about please comment.  Thanks
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 02:59:13 AM by Phonewizard »
Bruce Patterson
Lovettsville Virginia

Offline Jim S.

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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2013, 03:47:00 AM »
It does look railroad, However it may be a "War Shortage" set. Many phone companies cobbled together old phone parts to create subscriber sets. The new installs (at that time ) were limited to Doctors, emergency personal, war support ect.

My guess leans towards a war shortage set that was created for the rail system. What are the date markings on the parts?
Just a guess,
Jim

I have an interesting war shortage set from LT&T (Lincoln Telephone and Telegraph. The made an aluminum cast housing and wood phone parts to create  a wall phone. I have heard of 3 of these sets.
Ranked with best first
1. is in the Frank Woods Telephone museum in Lincoln, NE It is a shade of red/maroon
2. In the collection of Wally Tubbs curator of the LT&T Musemn ivory-ish
3. in my collection, ivory-ish w/oil stained paint (may clean up), purchased from Wally Tubbs.

Wally did find an article about these sets and the war effort. All three sets were located in Lincoln.

I also have a war shortage B1 mount that has a custom made fiber-type base instead of a metal baseplate with cover.
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Offline Phonewizard

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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2013, 01:02:54 AM »
The only marks on the phone are the usual L1, L2 Etc. marks .  It has a No. 42 induction coil which is rather large.  The perch is marked 42AB. No indication of any type of schematic unfortunately.  I did not take the bull dog transmitter apart so I do not know its date.  When I bought the phone the receiver was incomplete so I added the correct one from my junk box.  The push button goes to a double pole double throw switch which I assume is for signaling.   The overall quality of the construction of the box is quite high which makes me think that if not Western Electric it is up to their standards.

Any clue as to the 42AB marking of the perch.  That appears to be correct for a black stem Bulldog transmitter with a watchcase receiver or headset.  My clue is from looking at what the 152 AB is.

152-AB
Finish: Black
Transmitter:635A "Bulldog"
Receiver: watchcase
Bruce Patterson
Lovettsville Virginia

Offline Sargeguy

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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2013, 12:42:48 PM »
It definitely looks like railroad apparatus to me.

Here is a similar perch on eBay right now:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300957512253
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 12:48:52 PM by Sargeguy »
Greg Sargeant
Providence, RI
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Offline cihensley@aol.com

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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2013, 08:28:49 PM »
Sargeguy:

Your Jan. 13, 2013 post to this thread mentions the 1916 WeCo catalog. Do you have access to this catalog? Where?

Thanks

Chuck

Offline paul-f

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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2013, 09:35:58 PM »
An on-line copy can be found here:
 
   http://www.princetonimaging.com/library/western_electric_catalog_1916/
 
And in Google Books, with a 192 page Railway Supply Supplement.
 
    http://books.google.com/books/about/Electrical_Supply_Year_Book.html?id=AvpYAAAAYAAJ
Visit: paul-f.com         WE 500  Design_Line

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Offline cihensley@aol.com

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Re: Western Electric desk stand perches and their marks
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2013, 11:14:00 PM »
Paul:

Do both sites have the same thing? I don't have DjVU so I can't open the Princeton site.

Chuck