Author Topic: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?  (Read 1837 times)

Offline LarryInMichigan

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Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« on: August 05, 2012, 09:47:14 PM »
ebay link

Does this look like the real deal?  The handset is ungrooved brown bakelite, but the dial has a black body.  What do you think?

Larry

« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 09:49:51 PM by LarryInMichigan »

Offline poplar1

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2012, 10:20:28 PM »
I think the dial was added later. The number plate on the dial doesn't look right either...but  most Continentals did not have  paint over brown handsets: most are paint over black handsets. (My guess is that since they were recycling black 202s after 1951, most of the available handsets were not the brown ones.)
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Dennis Markham

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2012, 06:12:43 AM »
Not long ago I bought a Pekin Red Continental off eBay.  It had a black dial.  I figured the dial was added later and ultimately I switched it out for a #5J, white housing dial.  But the dial card hidden below was an original type dial card.  Later in discussing this with a long-time collector, he indicated that he had "heard" that many were released with the black dials at a time when it was important to get colored sets into use.  I don't know if that is indeed fact but I have seen others on eBay like this.  

With regard to the Brown Bakelite, I have two Continentals with brown Bakelite handsets.  They are seamless.  But I agree with Poplar1 that most of them are of the grooved, black variety.  Here's a shot of mine before I changed out the dial.

Larry, the Ivory set looks very nice.  If it's original paint, it sure is in nice shape.  It looks like some paint loss on the ear cap, which is common.  But the cradle ears sure don't show any sign of wear.  Good point about the dial card on yours....an Oldphoneworks original.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 06:18:53 AM by Dennis Markham »

Offline poplar1

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 06:37:19 AM »
Dennis, the dial on the red phone appears to be a switchboard dial (curved fingerstop). While I can't disprove the idea that some Continentals were issued with black dials (5H or 6A instead of 4J, 5J or 6D), to think they would have picked a dial with the wrong contacts makes me believe I didn't get enough sleep or something.

If some dealer did substitute a black dial for a matching color dial blank, then they probably lowered the value.

Do you remember if the wiring and dial screws appeared to have been done by WE?

On Larry's phone, I was referring to the  164A porcelain (not) number plate which appears to be repro, but the number card is new also.

I don't know how common the color masks (to cover the black on number cards) are on Continentals, but *if* they rushed sets with black dials into service, were they also short on masks?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 06:46:27 AM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Doug Rose

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 01:15:28 PM »
This seller is liquidating a large collection. There was another with an E1 that went for $85. Cords look used, but the paint looks brand new. I would be leery even with a brown bakelite handset. Paint does look superb. Open face finger wheel and this is a beauty!...Doug
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Offline Dennis Markham

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2012, 08:10:17 PM »
Dennis, the dial on the red phone appears to be a switchboard dial (curved fingerstop). While I can't disprove the idea that some Continentals were issued with black dials (5H or 6A instead of 4J, 5J or 6D), to think they would have picked a dial with the wrong contacts makes me believe I didn't get enough sleep or something.

If some dealer did substitute a black dial for a matching color dial blank, then they probably lowered the value.

Do you remember if the wiring and dial screws appeared to have been done by WE?

David, when I first saw that curved finger stop I thought it was a switchboard dial.  I mistakenly bought a #5 switchboard dial once that had the curved finger stop and pulsed at 20 pps.  I checked the black dial tonight that I removed from the Pekin Red 202.  It is a 6E dial dated 11-58.  It appears to be returning at 10pps.  Is a 6E dial a switchboard dial?

Offline poplar1

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2012, 11:17:51 PM »
Not sure if that is switchboard or test board, but definitely never designed for Continentals or 302s. That's why I don't think it was originally installed on that phone at the WE distributing house (service center).

Even the switchboard or test board dials  were never 20 PPS in Step-by-Step areas as that would have been too fast for the central office switches to keep pace.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2012, 12:10:11 AM »
6E =10 pulse per second = used for PBX and central office switchboards

6F= 20 pps = PBX and CO switchboards arranged for high-speed dialng

6G=20 pps= 555 PBX

(above per BSP Section 501-162-100 Issue 7, Feb. 1968)

My 2c: Even though the 6E has the same speed as a  4H, 4J, 5H, 5J, 6A or 6D, the 6E should not be used on a 202 or Continental or 302 because the contact pileup is different.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 12:16:30 AM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Dennis Markham

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 06:04:51 AM »
Thank you, David for the information.  When I saw the phone listed on eBay with the black dial I assumed it was something someone had added later.  I put a 5J dial in the phone.  Larry, it will be interesting to see what dial is in your Continental.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 06:09:05 AM by Dennis Markham »

Offline LarryInMichigan

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2012, 07:01:17 AM »
I am anxiously awaiting the phone's arrival so that I can find out.  I believe that Dennis sold the switchboard dial to which he referred to me.  I replaced the finger stop in it with a standard one and adjusted to governor.  I don't remember where I put the dial though.

Larry

Offline poplar1

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2012, 08:54:13 AM »
The 20 PPS dial would probably work at that speed on today's digital central offices.

In the 1970s there were students at McGill Univ. in Montréal who refused to have a phone line where Digitone (Touch-Tone) service was not yet available unless they speeded up the dials to 20 PPS. This was probably on crossbar c. o. (They might have been the same ones that kept disconnecting the ground wire on pay phones so they could later collect all the 10 cent deposits that were lost; Bell Canada had to install alarms on the ground wires to alert them when they were disconnected.)
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline LarryInMichigan

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2012, 08:59:16 AM »
I used to be able to use ~20 pps, but when I switched my phone service to Cavtel, my fast dials stopped working.  Their equipment is much more particular about the pulse width and rate than the AT&T equipment was.  I had to adjust several dials.

Larry

Offline poplar1

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2012, 09:08:56 AM »
Not trying to be offensive, but why are so many of us giving up their traditional switched "land" lines?

I just saw an AT&T guy installing a phone in the apartments down the street while my dogs were walking me. He said maybe dial tone is making a comeback. I know he and I are guilty of wishful thinking.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline LarryInMichigan

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2012, 09:21:38 AM »
I didn't give up my landline.  I just switched to a less expensive provider.  I was previously using Cleartel, which became Birch, but their voicemail stopped working, and they couldn't fix it.  I found that Cavalier had the same service for $20/month less, so I switched.  They stopped offering new residential service several months ago, and their overseas outsourced customer (dis)service it horrible.  I had a fraudulent change on my bill apparently for an operator assisted call a few months ago, so I called their customer (dis)service number.  After waiting on hold for half an hour, I had to spend another 10+ minutes trying to explain to the agent, who I believe was in the Philippines, that I did not make an operator assisted call, and that the charge was fraudulent.  I asked her what the phone number was that I allegedly needed an operator's assistance to call, and she replied "111000".  I tried in vain to explain to her that "111000" is not a legitimate phone number in North America.  She eventually agreed to remove the bogus charge but absolutely refused to understand why her company had a problem if someone was slipping fraudulent charges into their customers' bills.  She told me that I should hire a lawyer!  I sent an email message to the company, but never received a reply.

Larry

Offline poplar1

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Re: Ivory Continental - Is it Real?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2012, 09:38:11 AM »
So is this a c.o. switch co-located in the incumbent telco "wire center" (central office building) or are they buying dial tone wholesale then reselling it?
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.