Author Topic: Gray-Western 174G PayStation Company Phone  (Read 14913 times)

Offline MagicMo

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2013, 07:33:14 PM »
Talk about confusing!!

I found one more date of 4-29.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 07:47:30 PM by MagicMo »
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Offline Mr. Bones

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2013, 07:55:24 PM »
Wow! :o

     What a cool payphone! Great find, Mo!

     I wish all modified phones had the BSP references in them; it would save me from asking lots of dumb questions here! ;)

Best regards!
Sláinte!
   Mr. Bones
      Rubricollis Ferus

Offline MagicMo

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2013, 10:25:18 PM »
I took off the back and it shows a 139A. The back of the phone shows 174G modified. So, can anyone tell me about this phone??
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Offline AE_Collector

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2013, 10:46:37 PM »
Additionally, Terry is (unfortunately) NOT correct on the "4-29" date; 3-slot payphones were indeed around at that time.

Fortunately (not unfortunately) I would say! (for Mo and whomever winds up owning this one).  I had no idea that the 3 slot design went back that far in time. I would have guessed soon after WW2!

Thanks for all the info Ray.

Terry

Offline Jim S.

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2013, 11:45:18 PM »
You can try looking up the Practice for C64.24 fig 7A.
There is a decent chance it is in the TCI library.
JMO,
Jim
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You die, you forget it all.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2013, 12:54:06 AM »
I took off the back and it shows a 139A. The back of the phone shows 174G modified. So, can anyone tell me about this phone??


The 139A is not part of the phone, as Ray pointed out.

The 174G, is a "Conversion" (CONV). Like the 5302 and the 151-AL, there were no "new" 174Gs ever produced. Note the 1952 date on the coin track. That is about the time that calls went from a nickel (5 cents) to a dime (10 cents). The original lead coin track was changed to a 10-cent stainless steel track, and an F-type handset was added.

The conversion was done by the Western Electric Distributing House or possibly by the Bell operating company. The ones used in New York City have a rectangular plate on the front to cover the holes where the original 10A transmitter mount was. The plate was installed because the instruction card holder was mounted above the dial, unlike yours pictured here.

As Ray pointed out, this  phone originally had a separate transmitter on the front and a receiver like the ones on a candlestick. It was probably originally a 50-G for 5 cent pre-pay service.

The fact that it has the Gray + WE names on the front mean that this part was made before 1934, when WE started making their own pay phones instead of buying them from Gray.

I will disagree with about 99% of the collectors in arguing that this phone should not be unconverted (don't they call that backsliding?). It is easy enough to find a 10A transmitter mount, cup and transmitter, also the receiver.  But the cast coin gauge, lead coin track, original hook are another matter.  Besides, this is the best marked 174G I have ever seen.

The last two 174Gs on Ebay went for $1500-$2500 (not including the non-payer who bid one of them up to over $5000). I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone was paying  that much just to get a "parts phone."

I do understand why some people like to "restore" these to 150-G. I understand that some people look at this and think "hack job." If I had more than one 174-G and no 50-Gs or 150-Gs, I might take the worst 174-G and "restore" it to a 150-G. But I won't be doing that to the one 174-G I have.

By the way, I am also not unconverting my 5302s to 302s or my 151-ALs to 50-ALs, 51-ALs, 20-Bs, etc.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 01:16:11 AM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline erik666

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2013, 07:33:18 AM »
it is a good one MO  what hand set is on it ?
I like that it has a original reciever hook and I noticed that it has the old style AE dial shroud (Z and operator)
wonderful patina !

Offline DavePEI

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2013, 07:38:53 AM »
Hi Maureen:

I have to agree with David in that this phone shouldn't be brought back to original. The reason? Because the phone and its changes are so very well documented through its stampings. Its history can be read through the stampings, making it a very interesting phone. Nice one!

Dave
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Offline kleenax

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2013, 12:11:38 PM »
Wouldn't ya know it. He has a 10g key! I opened it up. It def is not original. It looks like it is a 174G,. This was in his brothers bar in Chicago back in the day. Do you know anything about a 174g??
Thanks,
Mo

OMG!  Mo, you really know how to hit one "out of the park"!!

A 174G?  WOW!

Geez-O-Petes!  Probably a $2,500.00++ phone there kid!   And it has got to be the BEST-marked 174G that I have ever been fortunate enough to view, honestly; they are simply that rare!  Yes OK, I will use the "R-word"; this puppy is a RARE phone!  

I have seen more 50A examples than I have 174Gs in this condition; no kidding!

I read this thread this morning (both pages), and Mr. Willingham (poplar1) knows more about these than I ever will, and he is 100% correct. It is indeed "Original", right down to the BSP quote stamped on the inside. And to see the top-housing and the backboard properly stamped is unbelievable; truly a rare-rare find.

And I agree with David (Willingham) 110% - This example should be left in EXACTLY this condition; it is indeed that rare even though it IS technically made-up of older/newer components.

The fact that it is a bonafide WESTERN ELECTRIC documented "upgrade" (to 174G specs) is where the High-value and desirability lies in this one.

Your father is STILL taking care of you to this day :)  That should make you smile  :) I have to think it would surely make him smile as well!

Now, if you are going to list it, for eBay purposes, get a good photo from the front of the phone, without the top-housing mounted, so people can see the entire insides. Then, also get a good close-up of that 2-coil relay that sits in there just on the top of the lower-housing. That bolted together coin hopper behind the 2-coil relay is also the very early/desirable variety, so the photos should show that.

Excellent fortune once again!

Oh, and by all means, sell the 139A bracket separately.  And one last thing; the coin chute within is CRAMMED with coins; empty it out!

Regards,

Ray Kotke (aka - Kleenax)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 12:35:15 PM by kleenax »
Ray Kotke
Recumbent Casting, LLC

Offline DavePEI

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2013, 01:48:43 PM »
Hi All:

I heard from Stan Schreier regarding this phone, and he had the following things to say:

"Good morning.  I passed by the Rotary Forum and read the thread about
the 174G.  A few quick comments.

        1- That 3-slot is not a Gray paystation, it's a Gray/Western
paystation.  Yes, there are many differences aside from the value and the
embossing above the vault door
.  

Gray/Westerns are more collectable and hence worth more. See picture attached.

            The 50G GRAY on the left is wired with solid wire. The Gray/
Western on the right is wired with stranded wire.

            The hopper in the Gray (left) is cast.  The hopper in the
Gray/Western (right) is sheet metal.

            The coin relay in the Gray has a shield over the left hand coil
that is riveted to the frame.  The Gray/Western has a shield that snaps onto
the left hand coil.

            The purpose of the shield is to prevent the point of the bottom
edge of the top assembly from damaging the coil when the top is put on the
payphone.

            If the locks are original to the payphone they are probably
marked The long Lock Co. for the Gray. The lock on the Gray/Western would
probably be marked Western Electric.

        2-  3-slots that are embossed Gray Mfg. Co were produced for sale to
independent telephone companies.  The ones embossed Gray/Western were
manufactured for the Bell System.

        3- Full size 3-slots date back to 1912. They were manual prepay.
Both Gray and Gray/Westerns were built even back then.

        4- I'm sure that 174G is so well marked because it was used as a
sample.  It's the 'AFTER' that probably sat around a modification shop.

        5- From what I see in the pictures the payphone appears to have been
originally a 50G.  The only thing that could be done to bring it back in
time without spending a small fortune on parts (that probably are
unavailable) would be to make it a 55G.  A 55G is a 10 cent, 2- piecer.  The
switch-hook would have to be changed to a two piece type with a gate
operating arm.  An 'X' terminal assembly would have to be added above the
hopper.  That's not a large investment.  Is it worth doing-who knows.
If a collector doesn't own a two piece payphone I'd say the answer is yes.
Otherwise I'd leave it the way it is.  As the payphone sits there's nothing
special about it.  Aside from a few obviously unofficial markings it's
just another example of  'poetic license' used to build a 174G.

        6- The 139 bracket is the second version.  Not as valuable as the
older one but still sought after by collectors.

Stay well.
Stan
"
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 02:10:34 PM by DavePEI »
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Offline MagicMo

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2013, 04:54:17 PM »
Thanks for all the info. I appreciate everyone looking into it for me and thank Stan for his input.
With all due respect, I appreciate the opinions of those who know more about this stuff than myself (which would probably be everyone here) but opinions are not always absolute.

I know I do not know much about phones but I strongly disagree with Stan's comment: "As the payphone sits there's nothing
special about it.  Aside from a few obviously unofficial markings it's just another example of  'poetic license' used to build a 174G."
I don't quite know what he meant by the comment other than it's nothing special and the markings may not be authentic. Who knows? He could be right. BUT..................................... ...... With that being said, if I listened to the opinions of people who I knew to be big time antique telephone collectors who I sought out after I found the Picturephone (long before I found my way to this forum) I would have been better off to scrap the whole thing and trash it. Thank God I knew better.
Being an artist myself (I am an oil painter) I look at a "poetic license" as a way to heighten my work, think outside the box and have freedom to intentionally deviate from the norm and that is what this phone represents to me. Just like the Picturephone I know this phone is something unique, special and brilliant just they way it is.
Thanks for all your help and knowledge! :)
Mo
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Offline MagicMo

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2013, 05:35:27 PM »
it is a good one MO  what hand set is on it ?
I like that it has a original reciever hook and I noticed that it has the old style AE dial shroud (Z and operator)
wonderful patina !

Thanks Erik,
The handset says F2
Mo
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 05:58:14 PM by MagicMo »
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Offline MagicMo

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2013, 06:07:15 PM »
I have found several vault doors to the change box. Is there someway to tell which one may belong to this Payphone?
Thanks
MO
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Offline MagicMo

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2013, 07:42:55 PM »
a better pic showing the bsp number
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Offline DavePEI

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Re: Gray Telephone PayStation Company Phone??
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2013, 09:09:35 PM »
From Stan:

A copy of BSP C64.241 as mentioned above!

1st file, BSP

2nd file fig. 7

Dave
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 09:11:34 PM by DavePEI »
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