Author Topic: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302  (Read 2385 times)

Offline TelePlay

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NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« on: June 27, 2013, 08:21:23 PM »
Posting this for posterity, and because I've never seen one of these this new.

Quite remarkable, and truly unique if truly a new 302.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290937845836

Seller says: "You are bidding on a NEW, unused Western Electric Bell System ivory 302 set that has never been put into service. This telephone set is immaculate, pristine and all original. The original silk cords are spotless and as new as the day they were installed. The set has no chips, scratches or blemishes. The leather feet are in perfect condition and supple. The phone works perfectly (tested) and is as new as the day it was made in 1950. This phone is for the sophisticated collector who wants a brand new ivory 302 set and has no intention of using it except for display."

It is/was a 5 day auction starting at $1.00 with a "reserve price" set and a BIN price of $1,900.

Offline Doug Rose

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2013, 08:51:09 PM »
John....I saw this when it was first posted with a $1900 BIN. I have never seen a new Ivory set and this is just a beauty. A true work of art. Always reminded me of white chocolate.     8)   ...Doug
Kidphone

Offline WesternElectricBen

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2013, 09:58:37 PM »
Maybe I aught to start collecting colored 302's used...


Offline WesternElectricBen

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2013, 10:25:30 PM »
Actually, I probably just shouldn't collect colored 302's..

Offline TelePlay

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2013, 07:47:10 PM »
John....I saw this when it was first posted with a $1900 BIN. I have never seen a new Ivory set and this is just a beauty. A true work of art. Always reminded me of white chocolate.     8)   ...Doug

Doug,

White chocolate is a very good descriptor. And the more I look at the picture, the better it looks. It almost seems just too perfect. As of now, it has 10 bids and is up to $394.88 but the reserve is not met with less than 2 days to go on this auction. It would have made an interesting auction contest if it were a longer listing, no reserve and had no BIN. But, at least we got to see what one of these looked like brand new, and I'm not using NOS because it looks better than that.

unbeldi

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2013, 02:54:05 PM »
When I saw this auction I had some doubts about the claim of "new".
For one, the set is slightly miswired. The red and green mounting cord leads are reversed. Even the 1950 WE catalog still shows the red lead on L1 and green on L2, not to mention the numerous BSPs.
There is a large discrepancy in the years on the base (1950) vs. the ringer and the inductor (1947).
The base appears as the base for a 304 set, not a 302, as judging by the connector assembly.
The capacitor did not look terribly new to me.
The inside of the housing appeared to have more discoloration than the exterior and the black paint marks in the corners indicate more than casual housing removal, in addition to some shrinkage scratches.
The BIN pricing appeared out of range, almost as if designed to distract from the mentioned issues.
No doubt a very nice piece, but buyer beware.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 02:59:09 PM by unbeldi »

Offline AE40FAN

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2013, 04:12:31 PM »
When I saw this auction I had some doubts about the claim of "new".
For one, the set is slightly miswired. The red and green mounting cord leads are reversed. Even the 1950 WE catalog still shows the red lead on L1 and green on L2, not to mention the numerous BSPs.
There is a large discrepancy in the years on the base (1950) vs. the ringer and the inductor (1947).
The base appears as the base for a 304 set, not a 302, as judging by the connector assembly.
The capacitor did not look terribly new to me.
The inside of the housing appeared to have more discoloration than the exterior and the black paint marks in the corners indicate more than casual housing removal, in addition to some shrinkage scratches.
The BIN pricing appeared out of range, almost as if designed to distract from the mentioned issues.
No doubt a very nice piece, but buyer beware.

Unbeldi,  I love your profile photo!

unbeldi

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2013, 05:22:46 PM »

Unbeldi,  I love your profile photo!

Thank you.

You may very well say so, and I could not possibly be inclined to change your mind!

But, it does need an update... watch for it.  .... There
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 05:28:32 PM by unbeldi »

Offline poplar1

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2013, 05:41:58 PM »
When I saw this auction I had some doubts about the claim of "new".
For one, the set is slightly miswired. The red and green mounting cord leads are reversed. Even the 1950 WE catalog still shows the red lead on L1 and green on L2, not to mention the numerous BSPs.
There is a large discrepancy in the years on the base (1950) vs. the ringer and the inductor (1947).
The base appears as the base for a 304 set, not a 302, as judging by the connector assembly.
The capacitor did not look terribly new to me.
The inside of the housing appeared to have more discoloration than the exterior and the black paint marks in the corners indicate more than casual housing removal, in addition to some shrinkage scratches.
The BIN pricing appeared out of range, almost as if designed to distract from the mentioned issues.
No doubt a very nice piece, but buyer beware.

These are some great observations.

The base is as you said for a 304, and someone changed the 101B induction coil to a 101A and the B2A ringer to a B1A.

The only one I disagree with is the wiring comment. In the photo, the set is wired correctly as a 302 for ring party. See BSP Section 502-400-401, Issue 2.

Since in all 302s the yellow condenser wire is connected to L2Y, then for individual lines and tip party, the red line wire connects to L1 and the green to L2Y, as you stated. The black ringer wire connects to K (along with the slate condenser wire) and the red ringer wire connects to either L1 (individual line) or to GND (Tip party flat rate).

However, if you are the ring party, and the yellow condenser wire is on L2Y, then it becomes necessary to connect green (tip) to L1 and red (ring) to L2Y. The black ringer wire connects to GND and the red ringer goes to K, along with the slate condenser wire. The CO sends ringing current over the red lead and ground is the return. If the red line wire is on L1, then the set will not ring.

After a certain year, all 302s were wired for Tip Party. So for ring party, you had to rewire the set just as is shown in the photo. Originally, 302A, B, C and D sets were for individual lines only, with a 2-conductor mounting cord connected as you stated: red to L1 and green to L2. For a party line, you ordered a 302F or 302G which had a 3-conductor cord. These were factory wired for ring party with Green on L1 and red on L2 (as in the photo), until at some point, they were all wired for Tip party with red on L1, green on L2 and yellow on GND with the ringer going to K (black) and GND (red).

Therefore, even if you get a never modified 302G, most of these are wired for Tip Party. So you have to move the red ringer wire from GND to L1.

But if it is wired for Ring party, you have to move 2 wires: The black ringer wire from GND to K and the red ringer wire from K to L1.

"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline poplar1

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2013, 12:37:09 PM »
The year that 302s with 3-conductor cords started being factory wired for tip party (red on L1, green on L2Y, red ringer on GND) instead of ring party was sometime between 1941 and 1947.

In 1941 and before, the 302s with 3-conductor mounting cords for grounded ringing (302E, F, G and H) were factory wired for ring party (red on L2Y, green on L1, and black ringer on GND. The 302s with 2-conductor mounting cords for bridged ringing (individual lines) (302A, B, C and D) were wired with red on L1 and green on L2Y.

Reference:

BSP C63.411 Issue 2 (1941)
BSP C63.411 Issue 3 (1947)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 11:43:40 PM by poplar1 »
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2013, 03:22:16 PM »
Thanks for the research.
The auction just ended with the reserve price not being met. Wonder how much they think a doctored phone is worth. It's a private auction too... while the seller's auction of the ("pristine") wall phone is not.
Two of my ivories, a 302 and a 304, have almost the same dates and all component dates are within a narrow range Jun-Oct. Surely one would expect as much from a new phone from a time when the demand was high so that a 3-year-old new parts stock seems unlikely.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 03:29:10 PM by unbeldi »

Offline poplar1

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2013, 03:36:53 PM »
I wrote the seller and he said that it looks like H3 (304), not H1 (302) is stamped on the housing. This confirms your earlier observation that the base looks like a 304.

I also asked him what was stamped on the box, and he didn't answer that. My guess is that there is no box!

On the other hand, it is possible that the changes of the induction coil and ringer were done long ago. Perhaps there were no ivory 302s in stock and they converted it either in the WE shop or the back of an installer/repairman's van? I don't know why anyone else would have wired it for ring party, unless it was installed on a party line.

Since in 1950, it would have had the later wiring with red on L1 and green on L2, it would not have been necessary to reverse these for use on an individual line. And if some collector or other user wanted to make it ring without changing the standard factory wiring, he/she could have just moved the ringer wire to L1 .
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

unbeldi

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2013, 03:47:13 PM »
It looks like H3?   On a new phone it should be pretty clear what it says, the numbers are not very similar in shape.
If the housing has the H3 stamp, then the hookswitch assembly has been swapped too. A 304 has an extra switch, for a total of 6 wires.
So,  a 304 has been retrofitted with ringer, coil, and hookswitch as a 302 with parts from 1947. Seems like the cost of that operation is higher than just putting a 304 in service instead and swapping a couple wires if any.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 03:51:39 PM by unbeldi »

Offline poplar1

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2013, 04:01:51 PM »
I forgot about the hook switch. Yes, it would have been easier to move a few wires in the 304. The only justification for the cost would have been that there may have been no ivory 302s available. Or, that whoever did it found it easier to make it a 302 rather than try to figure out a 304. Again, this confirms what you said about it not being "new."

When I was a trouble man for state of GA phones, I would try to use whatever I had on my truck rather than have to go back to the work center.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline WesternElectricBen

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Re: NEW Western Electric 1950 Ivory 302
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2013, 05:18:38 PM »
Its kind of sad that they didn't get nearly what they BIN price is....

Ben