Princess Dial 8A

[Kmoody]

You guys have been so helpful in helping with my stupid questions. So I have another problem I need help on.

I have a Princess phone with an 8A dial. The dial spins 70 miles an hour when it returns. Is there a way to slow it down by adjusting the governor? Or is there a way to replace the rubber pads on the governor?

Thanks again for all you help.

[TelePlay]

Can you post images of the dial, with the plastic protective cover removed?

[TelePlay]

Not seeing an image of your dial, the following is a guess at how to approach your "running fast" dial problem.

If the attached image looks like your dial, you have a closed face governor and the governor can be adjusted the same way one would change the speed on a WE #9 dial as described in this topic:

https://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=26305.0

If the governor spring were broken, the brakes would not be controlled and the dial would run slow, not fast.

I highly doubt the brake pads on the brake wings are damaged, missing or would need replacement. It is not possible to even with difficulty to replace the brake pads.

The highest probability of running too fast is the axles holding each brake wing are frozen which would not allow the brake wings to expand, to make contact with the governor raceway to control, to appropriately slow the dial speed.

Have you used something like a round toothpick, to move out, expand, the wings - do they move freely? If not, the brake axles need cleaning and new lubrication.

If frozen, clean and lubricate the brake wings BEFORE trying to adjust the governor tension spring. Adjust the governor speed, if needed, after cleaning and lubricating the brake wings.

Being a closed faced governor will make cleaning with a good solvent, lacquer thinner is best, difficult but can be done using an eye dropper, mechanical movement of the wings and compressed air (repeat until the wings move out and in freely).

After they move freely, a very small amount of clock oil on each of the two axle pins (do not get oil on the governor raceway), mechanical movement to work the oil in, and wiping off any excess oil prior to using the dial (prevent excess oil from being thrown into the raceway) would be needed to re-lube the axle pins.

These were made as "throwaway" dials, field techs were instructed to remove and replace malfunctioning dials with a brand new dial. The dials are riveted together making hobbyist servicing difficult but not impossible with respect to cleaning, lubrication and speed adjustment.

The only thing that can be removed before cleaning of the leaf switches pileup making the cleaning of gear teeth and re-lubing teeth and axle bearing points a bit easier.

[poplar1]

These were made as "throwaway" dials, field techs were instructed to remove and replace malfunctioning dials with a brand new dial. The dials are riveted together making hobbyist servicing difficult but not impossible with respect to cleaning, lubrication and speed adjustment.

The 8AA and 9CA dials (both with plastic gears) may be considered "throwaway" -- Steve Hilsz told me they aren't repairable. But I don't believe the 8A and 9C are throwaway.

By the 1970s, if not before, field techs were told to replace the entire phone, rather than single parts. That was probably because of the time required, rather than a lack of repairability. (Some of the old timers still wanted to replace only the defective parts!)

The defective phones and others removed from service  were sent back to the Western Electric Repair Shops at the Distributing House, where they were remanufactured, then marked  "Telephone Company Property" in green ink on the box labels, and sometimes on the phones or parts. For sure, many Princess sets were "remanufactured" with 8A dials, and 500s with 7C, 7D, and 9C dials.

[TelePlay]

A dial with a riveted together drive train, a governor that does not have the #4/5 type (adjustable) governor and a dial that does not have an open faced governor (8 & 9 typically) are difficult for a hobbyist to clean, lubricate and adjust the dial speed. A field service person is told by BSP to replace a 6, 7, 8 and 9 dials if its speed is out of spec. Hobbyists don't have a truck full of new dials to  swap out a malfunctioning dial, we try to clean, lube and adjust the one that came with the vintage phone.

TCI Library BSP:



https://www.telephonecollectors.info/index.php/browse/wiring-diagrams/western-electric/dials/2385-501-162-100-i7-feb68-5-6-7-and-8-type-dials-id-and-maintenance-tl/file

Other than adding oil and adjusting adjustable dial governors in the field, if that didn't bring the dial in spec the dial was replaced. Where the bad dial went and what, if anything, was done to it after being returned to a shop is in question. Maybe the whole phone was replaced but I've seen quite a few old phone that field service was to add oil and then most likely check the dial speed by using the special call in number.

Anyone know if riveted together drive trains or closed faced governors, both with and without plastic gears, were refurbished?

Would be nice to see an image of the dial that started this topic.

[jsowers]

I had a 701 Princess with a dial problem like you described and I was able to fix it by oiling and working around the plastic pulsing cam quite a lot. Laugh if you will, but it worked after I oiled that one spot and worked the dial over and over. it finally broke free and the dial stabilized and worked at normal speed.

It's the area with the red arrow pointing to it, and that cam moves up and down to pulse the dial contacts.

This was around 2001, so I was quite green at working on dials and it's been a long time, but it worked OK when I finished. Picture below of an 8A dial with red arrow where you need to concentrate. Yes I know it doesn't make sense, so your mileage may vary, but it worked for me. Maybe I oiled something else important and it finally broke free? But I remember the pulsing cam being the culprit here.

[TelePlay]

Can you post images of the dial, with the plastic protective cover removed?

Interesting that oiling would slow down a fast dial.

Observation of the topic dial operation could determine the cause but I still think a really fast dial is caused by a governor that is not braking.

I've worked on a lot of dials that were a little slow and full of crud trapped by oil applied to increase dial speed but the excess oil ended up trapping more crud slowing the dial even more over time. These dials had the adjustable #4/5 governors. After disassembly, cleaning and proper lubrication during assembly (and not touching the governor) the refreshed dials all ran too fast. The governor had to be adjusted to slow the speed, get it back into spec.

That's proof that service techs did adjust adjustable governors in the field.

Slow dials that did not have an adjustable governor would pop right back up to speed spec with a good cleaning and new lubrication. The governor could not be adjusted in the field, only more oil added which collected more crud slowing the dial over time.

I just cleaned a 1961 #7 dial that was running about 9.2 PPS before cleaning. After cleaning and new lubrication, it was working at 10.1 PPS. That's a tribute to WE quality hampered only by crud over time.

As for this topic dial, waiting for an image and a report on the governor brake wing pivot condition.

[Kmoody]

I did use a pencil, to move out, expand, the wings and they moved freely.
I just noticed that I can hold the governor with my finger and the dial still returns fast.
I did oil the axles on the brake wings with a little drop of sewing machine oil, being careful not to get any oil in the race way.
Also, I oiled the Plastic Pulsing Cam's pivot points and all the other pivots.
Now maybe it's me just hoping. But it is running slower than it did.
I might try soaking the dial in paint thinner. But I would hate to get the little rubber pads on the governor wet.
Maybe I'll hook it up and try dialing a number.

[TelePlay]

If you hold the governor as you release the finger wheel and the finger wheel returns to its normal stop, the governor shaft clutch is not engaging.

There is a clutch on the governor shaft (looks like a spring wound around the governor shaft on a ferrule with a small gear on it underneath the governor) that keeps the governor from turning as a number is being dialed and when the finger wheel is released, that spring clutch kicks in, grabs the governor shaft causing the governor to rotate and the brake wings to expand to expand controlling the dial speed.

Either that clutch spring is broken in some way or there is lubricant on the shaft, between the inside of the spring and the governor shaft, causing the clutch to slip.

If it's the latter, you may be able to get the oil out with copious amounts of lacquer thinner, an eye dropped to squirt it into the clutch and compressed air to blow out the dissolved oil.

I just looked at a WE dial governor and the spring clutch is wound around a dual concentric shaft. The clutch spring turns one way when dialing and the other way when the finger when is released. The inner governor shaft only turns when the finger when is released, the clutch is engaged.

If you dial a number, hold the governor still and release the finger wheel, the dial will not return to its normal stop if the clutch is working.

I've never taken that part of a dial apart when I've worked on dials which had their gear train cage held together with machine screws so I don't know how that clutch operates, why or how it engages. I've had frozen clutches (the governor turned in both directions) due to crud build up in the dual concentric shaft which could be broken free with solvent and mechanical action but I've never seen your "not engaging" problem.

Your gear train cage is riveted together so their is no way for you to take the governor apart. I'll have to research this a bit to see how the clutch works, engages.

On the good side, you have an open faced governor which allows easy access to the coiled brake wings spring should you need to adjust the spring to adjust the dial speed once you get the clutch to work.

Interesting problem, might be fixable, might need a new dial.

[TelePlay]

These are the 3 rivets holding the heat train cage together.

[TelePlay]

This link will take you to the post I did of a gear train cage taken apart, held together with machine screws:

https://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php?topic=23867.msg238128#msg238128

I've never taken the clutch apart or taken the governor off of the plate that holds it (I think it's a press fit shaft that may not go back together well if taken apart).

These images show the construction of what you have between your riveted plates and the clutch circled in red.

I did not study the operation of the clutch when I had the dial apart, wish I had but never thought a clutch would fail that way.

[TelePlay]

Also, the clutch may be working and either the small gear has come loose, spins, or the governor itself may have come loose, spins on its thin governor shaft, or the thin shaft may have snapped into two. Look at it in operation and figure out why the clutch is not grabbing the governor shaft.

[Kmoody]

I'll try tomorrow cleaning the shaft on the governor with thinner and my air hose.
My eyes are getting tired tonight.
Also, it didn't slow down after oiling all the pivot points.
If nothing works, I might just try drilling out the rivets.
But that governor is held on the shaft with a push fitting.
I'll give it a good look over later.

[TelePlay]

If you drill out the rivets, you will never get it back together. The rivets are the ends of the 3 spacer posts, a rivet on each end. If you drill them out, you will no longer have the rivet end for assembly and there is a very good chance that the gear train cage will not be "square" and that will affect the mesh of all gears.

On the machine screw types of cages, the cage plates are held apart by brass tubes with the machine screws going through those tubes. Those rivet posts are an inferior design to tubes and screws.

I had a Princess once where the dial did not turn well. I thought it was just crudded up. When I took it apart, I realized the phone had been dropped on the dial in a way that slightly bent the rivet posts out of square. That caused some gears to be too close to each other (grind) and others not to fully mesh. I tried to bend them back to square but the problem just got worse. Kept the front parts of the dial and tossed the mechanism.

Before working on it, try to figure out what is slipping, why it's not engaging the governor brake wheel.

[Kmoody]

It looks like one of the windings on the clutch spring is stuck between the top and bottom shafts. I've been trying to fix it. But so far, no luck.
I will probably start looking on ebay for another dial at some time.