Author Topic: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets  (Read 1511 times)

Offline Babybearjs

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Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« on: January 19, 2021, 07:37:51 AM »
I'm trying to find the color coding for the older mounting cords on keysets prior to 1950-55. the color code had changed when the newer sets came out in the late 50's and I'm trying to find the old code. does anyone know if the TCI Library has anything on this? the old cords started out with RGBYBW (red, green, black, yellow blue, white) they had color combinations like Brown, Black, Red, White and Double colors (RR, GG, YY, BB) does anyone know about this history? I found the practice from 1961, 502-5254-404 that shows the mounting cord pinout.... (D30B) what I want to know is what was the OLD wiring code for the 25 pair mounting cords on the 560 series phones..... so far, I've just found the 15 pair pinout and don't know what order the colors went in..... on the new cables it goes White, Red, Black, Yellow Violet.... on the old ones..... brown, slate, red, black, white? its hard to figure out what they used to have... double colors also?? even triple color codes....thats what throws me....
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 08:33:27 AM by Babybearjs »
John

Offline Babybearjs

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2021, 10:05:15 PM »
I hope I get some results with this.... anyway, I posted a question yesterday about old color codes from the 1950's.... and found through Frank Harrels website, a partial answer... the first 5 pairs of the OLD color code.... RED, GREEN, BLACK, YELLOW, BLUE, WHITE, BROWN, ORANGE, PINK, and SLATE..... following that..... the Brown set.... BWN-Red, Bwn-Grn, Bwn-Blk, Bwn-Yel, bwn-Blu, Bwn-Wht, BROWN (Bwn-Bwn), Bwn-Org, Bwn-Pnk, Bwn-Slt.... (at least I think thats how it could have gone) so, does anyone know what the next color combination could have been? When I found the Pink-Slate wires, that answered the 5th pair question.... so..... does anyone want to comment on this, or am I just wasting my time?
John

Offline 5415551212

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2021, 10:58:38 PM »
Hmmm yes I have seen some of this old 25 pair solid color stuff when doing electrical work in old offices, never thought to save it.
I believe its based on
Tip +    Ring -
L1 green     red
l2 black     yellow
L3 white     blue
L4 brown     orange
L5 pink     slate

Offline Babybearjs

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2021, 03:34:41 PM »
OK... so we have ID'd the first set, what about the other 4  color groups.  any idea?
John

Offline Key2871

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2021, 04:18:20 PM »
I thought I had information on some of the MD color codes, but I cant seem to find it in the house.
Anyway, can I ask John, why do you want them?
Are you working on these old key sets?
KEN

Offline poplar1

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2021, 09:10:22 PM »
Here is a start: WE 564HD in TCI Library

BSP 502-541-406 issue 1

The leads are grouped together, such as all the tips and rings, but both the old color code and new color codes are shown side by side for each lead.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Key2871

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2021, 12:01:15 PM »
From what I see, it uses a 30 (D30B) conductor mounting cord.
John do you have this? Do you have BSP 502-541-406 ISSUE 2?
Because I have issue 2 and it also shows the old and new color codes. Key Service Manual Vol 1.
Be specific, do you need all the colors, termination etc.
Or do you have this BSP already so you can look it up.
KEN


Offline poplar1

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2021, 06:43:13 PM »
It should be noted that while the diagram in the above BSP shows the mounting cord with 34 conductors with corresponding colors for both the old color code and the new one, these are both with an amphenol plug where the Tip-Ring, A(H), A1 (B1), LG, L for the first line are grouped together on pins 1-6. (Similar for the other lines.) However, in the hard-wired sets (using 44A connecting blocks), the lamp leads are grouped together separate from the T-R-A(H)-A1 (B1) leads.

For that reason, the 3rd pair of the old color code (White and Blue) are not found on pins 5 and 6 even though the old color code would logically be G, R; BK, Y; W BL.

"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline poplar1

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2021, 06:54:44 PM »
In order of the old colors (rather than the pins): -- not including the lamp leads

1. Green
2.  Red
3. Black.
4. Yellow

7. White
8. Blue
9. Brown-Green
10. Brown-Red

13. Brown-Black
14. Brown-Yellow
15. Brown-White
16. Brown-Blue

19. Red-Yellow
20. Red-Green
21. Red-Blue
22. Red-Black

25. Black-Green
26. Red-White
27. Green-Blue
28. Green-Black

I need to compare this to the diagrams for 464 sets to see if they are the same.
"C'est pas une restauration, c'est une rénovation."--François Martin.

Offline Babybearjs

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2021, 07:01:23 PM »
Thank you for the info! that answers my question.... so the scheme could be applied to a 25 pair cable? this is what I came up with as far as the order the cabling could have been in, is there any documentaion to support my theory? this is all based on 5 pair groups.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 07:27:06 PM by Babybearjs »
John

Offline Key2871

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2021, 09:20:27 PM »
I don't think the old color codes could be compared to the new in 25 pair cables, they might be similar but that's about it, from what I see.
KEN

Offline Babybearjs

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2021, 11:37:49 PM »
yeah, its funny to actually be able to piece the old scheme together.... I don't know how accurate it is, but it gives me a glimps into what was at one point.... I never knew that Pink/Slate was the 5th pair in the old scheme.... I remember seeing pink in a japanese phone, but just thought is was what they used.... so there must have been a regular color code back then for them to follow.... its just too bad the information is lost pretty much.... the only clue I have is the old BSP from the 60's showing the odd colors.... I would love to see the actual BSP showing the assigned wiring schemmmme of those days.... All I know is basic colors they used to use.... Red-Green-Black-Yellow-Blue-White... and in the old 3 wire station wiring of Red-Green-Yellow.... and the fact that in the 1900's to the 1940's they used to use twisted pair, normally black as IW in homes.... just like to old Tube and Knob wiring of that time..... Interesting history....
John

Offline 5415551212

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2021, 10:47:43 PM »
Well that nice to have documented, thanks for doing that.

Offline Babybearjs

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Re: Mounting Cord wire Color coding for older keysets
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2021, 01:07:42 AM »
you are welcome. I don't know how acurate it is as there was very little information to go on. I was really happy when someone gave me the colors for the 5th pair..(pink/slate) once I had the first original pair colors, then I followed the base colors for the other 4 groups. once I found them, then I just put it together... I wish there had been more documents available, but they all seem to be lost to history.... Western Electric wasn't the only company making phone cords.... so if any other information comes to light, this is the best I can come up with.... I hope the order is right since its mainly based on the BSP 502-541-406 from the 1950s/1960's... because they did not have speakerphones until the late 1960's there are "Vacant" spaces in the wiring scheme. the most pairs I saw was 20.... which only gives you 40 wires....and of course, amphenol plugs didn't come to age until the 1960's as everything else was hardwired. a maximum of 4 #44 10 terminal blocks were used. prior to the 500 series phones being made, the 400 series was used and sometimes the didn't even have illuminated buttons.... the old 1A key system.
John