Chasing a problem on 616

Butch Harlow · January 19, 2019, 09:56:14 PM

As discussed in an earlier thread on the Panasonic KX-T61610, I have been experiencing an issue with my compatible phone dropping out. It's a KX-T7731 and it seemed that it would drop out (lose power) when I had too many vintage phones on the system. Teleplay John suggested that I try plugging all the phones in until the problem presented itself and then remove them until it goes away as a way of isolating the problem to possibly a single phone that may be causing the Panasonic phone to drop out. I just added 10 vintage phones and the 7731 (on intercom position 19) without any issue. I had thought that the problem was a ringer current problem. when I call in to the unit on line one all the phones ring. (its very chaotically loud and I am happy that the wife isn't home at the moment.) not being able to reproduce the issue that way, I started intercom ringing each phone individually and answering it. when I got to station 22 (Mickey Mouse Design Line) it rang and when I answered it the 7731 cut out. Eureka! So, to be certain I had found the "problem phone" I relocated Mickey to a different extension and (this time intercom position 24) and tried again with the identical result. The 7731 cuts out upon answering. Once I disconnect Mickey from the 616, the 7731 comes back in. As far as I am aware this phone has not been modified in any way. It was my father's office phone when I was a kid and I remember him buying it new. What would cause it to short out the 7731? Should I try to reverse tip and ring or am I dealing with a defective network? I am hesitant to take Mickey apart again, because the first time it was very hard to put back together. Any advice or guidance is greatly appreciated.

Key2871 · January 19, 2019, 10:08:10 PM

Is it touch tone? Because it might be the polarity guard in the phone. I've had issues with polarity guard's causing funky problems with phone lines.
Just an idea.

Ken

rdelius · January 19, 2019, 10:10:20 PM

Make sure that the yellow and black leads are isolated inside the telephone set if they are on the modular jack

Ktownphoneco · January 19, 2019, 10:19:52 PM

Hi Butch .... Hope things are good down your way. This is a knee jerk brain wave on my part, ( I have the same system, except my programming model is a 61630 set ) but the programming sets all use all 4 pins in the jack. Standard "pots" sets usually only use 2 pins, "tip" and "ring". If a Telco tech, or anyone for that matter, took the "black & yellow" leads on the modular cord on the Mickey Mouse set, and placed them "in storage" so to speak, by placing both leads on the same terminal inside the set, that would show up as a short on the "black & yellow" leads inside the 7731 when the 2 sets tried to connect with each other. I'm not sure what the "black & yellow" leads inside the 7731 connect to, but they'd be connected to something since I believe they are used when the set is setting up options inside the KX-T61610.

Jeff

Butch Harlow · January 19, 2019, 11:01:24 PM

I noticed another problem that I had not before. Mickey is a special phone, so he gets his own jack on my VoIP line and is generally not hooked up to the 616. I noticed that it will not break dial tone (it is a touch tone) while connected to the 616, but will when hooked to its usual jack. So, I reversed tip and ring. This time, the second I plugged into the 616 the 7731 would drop out and as soon as I unplugged it 7731 comes back. Then, leaving tip and ring reversed, because that solved the dialing issue, I disconnected and isolated yellow and black. Now the 7731 stays lit, Mickey dials out, and all the features of both phones operate as they should. BUT...and this is a big but, when I plug Mickey back into his own VoIP jack he doesn't break tone anymore. I could just decide that Mickey is incompatible with the 616 and leave it at that, but that wouldn't be any fun would it?

So, I guess this moves from being a 616 issue to being a Mickey issue.

My question now I guess is how do I wire Mickey to work in both environments?

Thanks to all for the help thus far.

Key2871 · January 19, 2019, 11:08:48 PM

You could use a small rectified bridge and connect it so it dials out either way. But I think it's odd that your Panasonic would have correct polarity, but your voip wouldn't.
Can you put a tester in the voip and see if the polarity is correct, and check your system as well. That way you will know what is backwards. Because it sounds like you don't have a polarity guard in Mickey.

Butch Harlow · January 19, 2019, 11:15:54 PM

Quote from: Key2871 on January 19, 2019, 11:08:48 PM
You could use a small rectified bridge and connect it so it dials out either way. But I think it's odd that your Panasonic would have correct polarity, but your voip wouldn't.
Can you put a tester in the voip and see if the polarity is correct, and check your system as well. That way you will know what is backwards. Because it sounds like you don't have a polarity guard in Mickey.

All that is inside Mickey is the Network, the hookswitch and the dial. So, unless the polarity guard is integrated into one of those components it doesn't have one. As far as testing which has the reversed polarity, I would assume its the VoIP, because every other phone I have works fine on the 616. However, they all also work on the VoIP. So, the problem has to be Mickey.

Key2871 · January 20, 2019, 06:23:26 AM

Phones like that I had, it was not built into the network.
Rather it was an about 1" X 2" plastic box with four wires coming out, two for the dial and two for the hook switch or something like that. It was double sided sticky taped to the base inside the base pan. It was kind-of purple, tan color.
And they were known to fail, or to do odd things with receive and transmit quailitys. It may have been ATC dials may have had guards built into the dial, but mine were primarily Western Dial pads and guts. But you could be correct it could be voip, because they would assume that the phone being used already had a guard built into the set, as most are these day's. Then again it could be your line cord running from voip reversing the Tip, Ring.

Ken

Ktownphoneco · January 20, 2019, 09:35:09 AM

Butch .... You could just use Micky on one Voip jack, and open that jack up and reverse the tip and ring and put the cover back on and plug mickey's line cord into the jack.

Jeff

poplar1 · January 20, 2019, 01:57:00 PM

Butch, which jack is reversed == the VOIP jack or the Panasonic 616 jack?

I have seen single line WE phones where the connections inside the phone had been reversed, possibly by the installer/repairman.
Factory wiring has green on L1 and red on L2 or A.

Butch Harlow · January 20, 2019, 03:25:50 PM

Quote from: poplar1 on January 20, 2019, 01:57:00 PM
Butch, which jack is reversed == the VOIP jack or the Panasonic 616 jack?

I have seen single line WE phones where the connections inside the phone had been reversed, possibly by the installer/repairman.
Factory wiring has green on L1 and red on L2 or A.

Not knowing which is really reverse, but judging from the following it would seem it's the VoIP.
This is how its wired to work on the VoIP, it's the way it was when I got it.

On L1 is red from line cord, Black from ringer, and Green from dial.

On the unmarked terminal directly to the left of L1 is Green from line cord, Green from hookswitch

On L2 (2 terminals clear on other side of network) Black from line cord and Yellow from hookswitch

On G (2 terminals) Yellow from line cord and Brown from hookswitch

To make it work on the 616, I reversed red and green line cord wires and disconnected and isolated both yellow and black line cord connections.

*edit* added some pics and it's a 35AH3D dial.

rdelius · January 20, 2019, 03:34:00 PM

did you try disconnecting the y and bk line cord wires?.They might short out the data pair on the 616 causing troubles.

Butch Harlow · January 20, 2019, 03:47:19 PM

Quote from: rdelius on January 20, 2019, 03:34:00 PM
did you try disconnecting the y and bk line cord wires?.They might short out the data pair on the 616 causing troubles.

Yes, and also had to reverse red and green to make it dial.

Butch Harlow · January 20, 2019, 09:14:03 PM

Quote from: Ktownphoneco on January 20, 2019, 09:35:09 AM
Butch .... You could just use Micky on one Voip jack, and open that jack up and reverse the tip and ring and put the cover back on and plug mickey's line cord into the jack.

Jeff

I think that's pretty much the fix. I took a square modular wall jack, put a short cord on it with red and green reversed in the jack. Drew Mickey's head on the cover and called it a day. Isolating yellow and black inside the phone has no effect on function on VoIP, and they were the cause of the short on the 616. So, should I be inclined to use Mickey with the 616, I have a homemade adapter.

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Chasing a problem on 616